Bread and Butter review

You wrote:

I’m not sure that I follow your statistical logic. If I studied only strategies that failed or had major problems, then I would have no meaningful variation in the dependent (outcome) variable: collapse. One needs to compare the win rates of strategies that collapsed with the win rates of those that didn’t. That’s how stats are done.

And I found that there was a relationship:

As for my selection of strategies, I selected the top 41 strategies according to C2 score at the time because they were a great selection of the most popular and most profitable strategies on C2 at the time. Any people who have been around at least a year can look at the list I used (click on the link in my earlier post) and see that these were a good representation of the most popular and profitable strategies. Back in Jan. & Feb. the C2 score was computed very differently than now and almost all of the favored strategies had very high c2 scores. And in early Feb. C2 scores were in effect frozen for a while so these 41 were the strategies that were highest rated BEFORE the mini-crash. So it was a good sample of the top strategies here.

You write:

Again, I don’t follow. Very few statistical methods require identical sample sizes (some “matching” techniques do).

I think that the best way to analyze these data is to use a Fisher’s Exact test (which is ideal for small sample sizes and does not require normally distributed data). Using Fisher’s Exact test, the significance of my main analysis is .003. In other words, a relationship as strong as the one I reported would happen randomly only 3 times in a thousand, way below the 5% threshold (50 times in a thousand). Contrary to your claim, my results are statistically significant–indeed, highly significant for such small sample sizes.

BTW, my B.A. (Yale) and my Ph.D. (U. of Chicago) are both in the quantitative social sciences, and I have taught or lectured on statistical research at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, Berkeley, Northwestern, Chicago, Duke, Texas, Virginia, and most other top US universities. Of course, that doesn’t make me necessarily right on this.

And remember, I was only reporting the probability of serious problems or failure during one particular market downdraft, not the certainty of that happening. If the next market correction is very different, then my results would not apply or would not apply as strongly. Further, in my study there was one strategy that was a big exception, JUST FOREX TRADES. That strategy did not suffer in Feb, despite having a win % and a WIN / LOSS RATIO similar to Bread and Butter today.

As I wrote, past performance is no guarantee of future performance. Since you discount my analysis, and predicting the future is difficult (and is usually impossible without simply assuming that the future is much like the past), go ahead and invest with Bread and Butter. The results so far are indeed terrific.

Maybe if you invest in Bread & Butter, you’ll get lucky.

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You stated the RISK FACTORS: (1) High Win Rate and (2) Low Ratio of Av. Gain to Av. Loss.

How about (1) Low Win Rate and (2) Low Ratio of Av. Gain to Av. Loss? Do you think it is better?

Among highly rated/profitable strategies, that was a fairly uncommon combination (LOW on both measures) Only 4 of the 41 strategies showed this pattern. Half of these 4 (2 strats) had serious problems in Feb., compared to only 16% of the 25 strategies that had neither risk factor.

Because of the small sample of only 4 strategies with the pattern you asked about, this difference is NOT statistically significant.

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It is not hard to build a mathematical model to explore the relationship between the % Win Rate and Ratio of Average Win/Loss, and detect if the strategy makes a profit or not consistently.

Corresponding to the % Win Rate 91%, 84%, 77%, 72%, 67%, 63%, 59%, 56%, 53% and 50%, the bottom line of the Ratio of Average Win/Loss must be maintained above 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0, respectively. If a strategy’s combination of the % Win Rate and Ratio of Average Win/Loss falls into this red “High Risk Zone”, theoretically it will lose money eventually.

We all knew that there are two ways to make profitable trades (Profit Factor larger than 1.0).

One is to focus on making a few big winning trades and not worrying too much about lots of losers, provided the wins are big enough (let profits run and cut losses short and quickly). In this way, the win rate does not matter, but you have to make a high Ratio of Average Win/Loss. If your Ratio of Average Win/Loss is larger than 1.0, your Win Rate of 50% ~ 56% is still acceptable for profitability.

Another way is, to make a very high win rate and use that high probability to harness the power of compounding. If the Win Rate can be maintained above 90-91%, your Ratio of Average Win/Loss can be low to 0.1 level, and still generate a profit for long run.

Many traders instinctively prefer a strategy with a lower win rate / higher reward, just because high win rate is not easy to achieve.

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I feel like its the opposite, at least on here. People prefer the high win rate for the good feel it gives them.

Then they get a loss… POW.

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Low win rate is frustrating to deal with, especially for the investors, as it requires a great deal of persistence to get through the long losing streaks. You don’t know when a big reward will come (it may never come, for some strategies). You get to sit tight while watching small winners turn bad and finally become losing trades.

Unfortunately, your entire chart is in the high-risk zone because safer strategies have a win / loss ratio above 1.2. Your entire chart has an av. win$ to av. loss ratio of under 1.1, so the risk is high across the whole range of your chart.

Theoretically, your point may be sound, but it does not obtain in the range of values you chose.

Do your own math - if you have an average win / loss ratio 1.0, how much % Win Rate you required to make a breakeven? It just needs 50%. If you have a 72% Win Rate, you just need a 0.4 average win/loss ratio for the breakeven.

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You are making a different point. Given a set win% and a set win/loss ratio, what is the profit? I assume that your chart clearly shows this. If you know the win% and know the av win and av loss, you can compute the profit. Of course, that’s simple math.

But your chart purports to show the "high risk’ area, when I think you just mean the net loss area. If we knew how well each strategy would do in the future, then your chart would show the tradeoff between the win% and the ratio, thus explaining known results. But we don’t know what the profit will be in the future.

My analysis examined serious problems/collapse in the Feb. drawdown. Strategies with a high win % and a low win/loss ratio BEFORE the mini-crash were much more likely to collapse or have serious DD problems DURING the mini-crash. I was trying to determine the risk factors for serious DDs, not how to compute profit and loss.

Once a serious DD happens, a strategy’s win% and av win/av loss ratio will change radically. If one replotted them on your chart, they would be in the red (loss) area.

Yet, as I wrote, every area on your chart (even the upper right quadrant) should be in a high risk zone looking forward because every area on your chart has an av win$/av loss$ ratio of under 1.2. Given what we know about strategies with low av win/av loss ratios at C2, that makes a strategy high risk.

And “high risk” does not mean “guaranteed to fail.” The next mini-crash might be very different than the one in Feb. Risk means risk, not a certainty. Yet this ratio indicator for failure was recognized and discussed BEFORE this year, so (whatever the optimal cutoff), my study confirms the robustness of av win$ / av loss$ ratio as a predictor of large future DDs.

Crappy strategy by all means, I learned that the hard way

@SantiagoUrquijoZam, I agree…I took this off my simulator after 1 month since it wasn’t making any money.