# Buy and Sell at same time same instrument **URL:** \ **Category:** C2\ **Created:** [July 21, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478 "2008-07-21T23:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BraveheartFXLLC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@BraveheartFXLLC](https://forums.collective2.com/u/BraveheartFXLLC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/1 "2008-07-21T23:15:27Z")
Hello: i have 1 system in FOREX but I NEED buy and sell eurusd for example at same time ,is possible? thanks ---
**Author:** ![ironcito](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/ironcito/32/1487_2.png) [@ironcito](https://forums.collective2.com/u/ironcito)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/2 "2008-07-21T23:39:25Z")
Uh… I may be misunderstanding your question, but why would you want do that? Just do nothing and you’ll get the same result, except without spreads or commissions. ---
**Author:** ![BraveheartFXLLC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@BraveheartFXLLC](https://forums.collective2.com/u/BraveheartFXLLC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/3 "2008-07-21T23:50:12Z")
no my friend, my FOREX system win making Hedging of positions.(because open a lot of positions, some times hedging too) do you trading options? some kind of options called Straddle or Strangle make money with volatility when you dont know exactly go the price (up or down) but you bet on volatility and win if the price have a great movement to up or down. ---
**Author:** ![Username](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/username/32/238_2.png) [@Username](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Username)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/4 "2008-07-22T07:42:18Z")
The short answer is no. The long answer can be found in a thread the last time time this was discussed back in April, there is a thread called, "Matthew, is hedging possible on C2?" or something like that and the conversation lasted 4 days. The conclusion was the same. No. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![BraveheartFXLLC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@BraveheartFXLLC](https://forums.collective2.com/u/BraveheartFXLLC)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/5 "2008-07-22T10:32:08Z")
i read the thread, but i still thinking in the possibility of chamge that and allow hedging,thx ---
**Author:** ![Username](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/username/32/238_2.png) [@Username](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Username)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/6 "2008-07-22T12:14:09Z")
Respectfully, maybe you need to re-read the thread. Some of the posts were from Matthew Klein the owner of C2 and I think he was fairly conclusive in his final posts. ---
**Author:** ![FinancialScientist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/financialscientist/32/2268_2.png) [@FinancialScientist](https://forums.collective2.com/u/FinancialScientist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/7 "2008-07-22T18:13:57Z")
What don’t you get about this idea that would make you want to do it? This is equivalent to being flat or holding no position. If your system gives you that signal, you need to re-write it, as this is equivalent to being perfectly offsetting, and it’s already been said you’ll save on commissions by doing it this way. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/8 "2008-07-22T18:19:28Z")
if you are long the USD you are long the USD if you are short the USD you are short the USD if you are long AND short the USD, you are flat. Whether you have 3 or 30 or 300 units both long and short. You are NOT “hedged.” You don’t “need to be hedged.” You are flat. if you disagree, then you need to study the concepts of flat, long and short, and ask yourself why you don’t understand them… ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/9 "2008-07-22T18:23:59Z")
If you own two DIFFERENT but similar instruments, THEN you might be hedged, For example, someone owns 9 or 10 different stocks for the longterm. They might short the S&P futures for a while to hedge against perceived downside risks. But if they short all their exact stocks, then they really own nothing and might as well just sell them. Southwest hedges their future fuel purchases, by locking in the price using the futures market. But they are just ensuring they know what the cost of fuel will be. THIS is hedging. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/10 "2008-07-22T18:24:03Z")
If you own two DIFFERENT but similar instruments, THEN you might be hedged, For example, someone owns 9 or 10 different stocks for the longterm. They might short the S&P futures for a while to hedge against perceived downside risks. But if they short all their exact stocks, then they really own nothing and might as well just sell them. Southwest hedges their future fuel purchases, by locking in the price using the futures market. But they are just ensuring they know what the cost of fuel will be. THIS is hedging. ---
**Author:** ![BraveheartFXLLC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@BraveheartFXLLC](https://forums.collective2.com/u/BraveheartFXLLC)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/11 "2008-07-22T23:07:45Z")
look index, i can give 1 idea ,maybe you dont know this concept , is very simple but who know… 1 market trending up for example you can go long EURUSD at 1,45 and 1 month later you can go short EURUSD at 1,55 and move stoploss (long position) to 1,50 . This trading is very usuful is you dont be sure of short position and you take this position without risk (without stoploss), because you are hedge with the other long position. you can tellme , why you dont close the long position and go short only… the reason is because you want be short with the minimum risk and take the money with the lower risk with long position open , because you think the long trendy go on. sorry by my poor english you understand this concept? ---
**Author:** ![KD](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/kd/32/545_2.png) [@KD](https://forums.collective2.com/u/KD)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 9:47am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/12 "2008-07-23T09:47:18Z")
"you can go long EURUSD at 1,45 and 1 month later you can go short EURUSD at 1,55" Once you do that, you are FLAT. I guess you can think of yourself as “hedged,” because EURUSD can go to infinity or it can go to zero, and you won’t make a dollar, because you are FLAT. ---
**Author:** ![Pete](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/pete/32/12306_2.png) [@Pete](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Pete)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/13 "2008-07-23T14:02:52Z")
"do you trading options? some kind of options called Straddle or Strangle make money with volatility when you dont know exactly go the price (up or down) but you bet on volatility and win if the price have a great movement to up or down. " Do **you** trade options? Advanced option strategies such as straddles, strangles, etc make use of different strike prices and/or different expiration months. Which has no parallel in the FX world. As you were previously told, going long and short the SAME forex pair is equivalent to be flat. Wanting to be long and short the same pair sounds like some sort of psychological crutch (e.g. not wanting to close out a long-term position while you trade in the opposite direction). ---
**Author:** ![LawrencePingree](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/lawrencepingree/32/1487_2.png) [@LawrencePingree](https://forums.collective2.com/u/LawrencePingree)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/14 "2008-07-23T16:57:42Z")
Definitions: Flat = Same Investment instrument with opposing positions Flat Example: Buy EUR/USD and Sell EUR/USD Hedged = Different Investment instruments with opposing correlation Hedge Example: Buy EUR/USD and Buy USD/CHF (typically their price action opposes each other) Each of these "Definitions" can be used in strategies depending on what you are trying to do. I believe what is being said is as long as you are closing these "FLAT" positions at different times, it would be possible to pick up pips but it would make more sense to just pick a particular position and either go long or short. The point is when you are two different directions in the same instrument you must pay swap and spread on each trade when in a single position this would be less costly and you could still hold the same basic strategy. ---
**Author:** ![TrendyBendy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dbc845/32.png) [@TrendyBendy](https://forums.collective2.com/u/TrendyBendy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/15 "2008-07-24T13:41:37Z")
I think I understand what the BraveHeart FX guy is trying to tell us in his bad English. To re-state his example, he wants to go **long** at 1.45. Then once the price reaches 1.55, he wants to raise a **stop-loss** on the **long** to 1.50 and go **short** at 1.55 (on which he doesn’t want to set a **stop-loss** ). He wants to be able to be simultaneously long and short because it will allow him to maintain a short position which **pays a profit** of **precisely** 0.10 for all prices **from 1.50 to infinity** as well as **profit** on all prices **from 1.50 down to 0** (the lower the price the higher the profit). What he is trying to do is similar to replication of being **long a put**. The ultimate reason why he needs both positions to be active is because if he **closed** the long and then kept only the short, he would not only have to set a stop-loss on the short but in order for his position to maintain the payoff described above **at all times** , he’d have to watch the market and **re-enter** the **short** each time the price stops his short out at 1.50. And each time he gets stopped and then re-establishes the short to stay in the market, he’d have to incur the **spread**. However, he’s forgetting that equally, each time price hits 1.50, if he uses his “hedging” technique, his **long** position (in place to serve as “protection” of the short’s losses) gets **stopped out** (at the raised **1.50** stop-loss). Even though at profit, from then on, the “protection” is gone. So all he has achieved is shifting the position management labor away from the short to the long. Because now instead of having to re-establish the **short** , he has to re-establish the **long** (and incur the spread each time). This so-called “hedging” (wrong name) is nothing more but an attempt of retail FX brokers to make the customer gain a sense of elitism and **feel better** about themselves, thinking they are more sophisticated and doing some way more complicated things than everybody else. The bottom line is, if you wanted to replicate the payoff of an **option** , you do **NOT** need simultaneous long and short positions. You can still do it **by simple spot trading** but you’re better off trading the actual **options** because otherwise you’ll end up paying **loads of commissions** to your broker on the spot fx bid/ask spread. Brokers like Oanda have **already** brought fx option trading to the retail market via their **BoxOption** product, which I think is part of **every** customer account by default. Trendy Bendy ---
**Author:** ![FrancisGingras](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/francisgingras/32/21573_2.png) [@FrancisGingras](https://forums.collective2.com/u/FrancisGingras)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/16 "2008-07-24T14:39:03Z")
Good analysis Trendy, I would be interested to see the effect of interest carry cost in a typical ‘flat hedged’ scenario. ---
**Author:** ![TrendyBendy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dbc845/32.png) [@TrendyBendy](https://forums.collective2.com/u/TrendyBendy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/buy-and-sell-at-same-time-same-instrument/1478/17 "2008-07-24T14:58:30Z")
The retail brokers tout the “hedging” feature as useful but as I pointed out, it’s not. You bring up a very good point, which is how I would like to conclude my contributions on this topic. The broker is interested in customers opening simultaneous positions long and short because it brings them more spread revenue. Additionally, it allows them to collect even more carry interest (they double up on the revenue from the carry interest rate spread)! Example carry interest rates from Oanda: AUD: you receive 6.9500% on longs, you pay 7.3250% for shorts JPY: you receive 0.2500% on longs, you pay 0.8000% for shorts If I went long AUD/JPY (receive interest on long AUD, pay interest on short JPY) and short AUD/JPY (receive interest on long JPY, pay interest on short AUD), I would receive a net of 6.95%-0.8%= **6.15%** for the long and would pay a net of 0.25%-7.325%= **-7.075%** for the short, which nets out to a cost of **0.925%** per year for just being flat… Assuming you can perform your strategy without incurring additional execution risk or increased bid/ask spread cost, but **without** using “hedging”, would **you** be willing to give up 1% of your return to the broker just on carry interest alone? I wouldn’t!