Dave's Goofiz ATM #S are wrong

Dave’s Goofiz ATM boasts one of the best systems here in the 500% range of return but no-one else but him could reach that number. His system is largely based on making his trades within the last few minutes or with no time left at all in the market day! Look at his past trades, the ones he did at 4pm on the nose, look at his last 7 days of trading. He even sells some at market open… then uses this trade to up his numbers in his trade performance where no-one else could have made this trade. His numbers are all off and you probably won’t get off half of his trades as I have not been able to.

I do not see any problem of making trades within last frew minutes. If you use ITM, you could get the signal immediately and have time to response.



“He even sells some at market open”. What’s wrong for making trades at market open? For brokers like IB, they have a order to buy/sell at market open. You will be able to get the open price. Your knowledge is very limited.



What specific trades do you have problem with? List it here and I can explain to you. Don’t run away. :slight_smile:

BTW, every one are welcome to provide feedback.

“I do not see any problem of making trades within last frew minutes. If you use ITM, you could get the signal immediately and have time to response.”

Dave, you are dodging the issue here. No-one sees any problem of making trades in the last second of the day and I’m sure it is working out well FOR YOU. But don’t act like anyone else could use this for themselves because when you make all these trades at 1600 there is no time left for us to make it too. Then, you sell it at market open and turn all this info into your performance records to make yourself look better when in fact no-one else could have made this trade. Period.



“He even sells some at market open”. What’s wrong for making trades at market open? For brokers like IB, they have a order to buy/sell at market open. You will be able to get the open price. Your knowledge is very limited."



YES, for brokers like IB… not Dave. When did your order come to sell at market open??? It came AFTER MARKET WAS OPEN. And how the heck could anyone sell something they never bought because you put in the order to buy at 4pm??? Maybe my knowledge is limited, but your manipulation of the numbers to make your program look good isn’t.



"What specific trades do you have problem with? List it here and I can explain to you. Don’t run away. :slight_smile: "



I am not running away Dave. Why would you write that? I want to use your program which I had signed up for, and I want it to work for me closely to what you advertise. But I cannot. It doesn’t work. Even if I were sitting at my computer waiting for your next call at 4pm I still do not have time to get that trade off. Period. Do you have any questions with this??? Your BTO for WIRE @ 4pm, sell at market open, XWG sold at 4pm (unless you tell folks to sell at market close before hand they can’t do it and they take a bath at market open trying to dump it then), MED BTO 4pm, sold at market open, IIJI BTO @4pm, sold at market open, LCAV BTO at 1559, Oh, if we got your instant alert we would have had less than a minute to react… I realise some of your trades are for stocks that trade after market hours too, but not all of them. . It seems a very large part of your program is designed to buy/sell right at the open/close of the market. You get off your trades and it works for you. For it to work for others the signal to buy or sell at least has to come early enough for folks to make the trade. How simple is this? I would like to use this system, so please tell me how I can work it.

If I might jump in as an objective observer. This problem brings up

an interesting issue, namely the followability of any system.



Any systemvendor should be aware of just how easy is to copy his trading signals. Thus this problem of buying/selling too close to the close could be avoided, if Dave :

1. Executed the trades a bit earlier. Let’s say 3:50 latest.

2. Emailed subscribers earlier of the possible trade. (buy XXX at close)

3. Would make sure subscribers use the IM window, thus they get immediate notification.



But beside the system vendor, the subscribers should be also aware just how hard or easy to copy the trading signals. That’s why you have a trial period, and if you figure that you can’t really use the signals in real life, look for a different system…



Nevertheless it was a valuable feedback from Michael, and it just shows that there are other characteristics beside gains/sharp ratio/etc. to consider before subscribing to a system…

… and as someone has already pointed out in this forum, the quantity shown as traded (in the C2 tables) for some trades can exceed the actual total volume traded that day for the symbol. So the hypothetical model results must be taken with a grain of salt for those systems that work out trade quantities based on how much $100K can buy or sell. As always, reality checks are a must when shopping for a system that you plan to actually trade with real dollars in a real account. You have to do your own due diligence.

Would restricting the trade size to one lot/contract or 100 shares resolve this problem?

I don’t know if you really did an analysis of the system.



1. Do you think buying at the close price and selling at the next day open price will make profit? If you do not think so, I did not take adavantage of that. If you think so, you can do that to make money (I doubt).



2. “But don’t act like anyone else could use this for themselves because when you make all these trades at 1600 there is no time left for us to make it too.” How can you say I make all these trades at 1600? A very small % of trades were made at 16PM. The record is there and everybody can go back to check.



3. “Then, you sell it at market open and turn all this info into your performance records to make yourself look better when in fact no-one else could have made this trade. Period.” Do you think doing this can make the system better? Please do some research before you say this.



4. “Your BTO for WIRE @ 4pm, sell at market open” This is a lose trade, I did not take any advantage. Also this is STO trade, not BTO trade.

“XWG sold at 4pm (unless you tell folks to sell at market close before hand they can’t do it and they take a bath at market open trying to dump it then)”. This is a STC trade. It is a lose trade. I did not take any advantage to make system looks better. I covered this trade at 12.5 at C2. Next day, it opened at 12.5, the high is 13, then went down to 11.12 and closed at 12.36. The chance to get a worse exectution is not high. The chance to get a better execution is pretty high.

“MED BTO 4pm, sold at market open”. It is a lose trade. I did not take any advantage to make system looks better. If I am right, no subscriber got hurt by this trade. You could buy at much lower price (compared to the market close price) in the after hour if you like.

“IIJI BTO @4pm, sold at market open” For this one, you could get better price in the after hour. You could get 10 cents lower. You can get a better execution and you are still not happy? Als for the selling, you could get a better exeuction than C2. What’s your point?

“LCAV BTO at 1559, Oh, if we got your instant alert we would have had less than a minute to react” You could get better price in the after hour.



Some of my trades need to be determined in the last half hour. I am a trader, I need to trade. I might do not have enough time to publish trading signal. I do my best to let subscriber to have enough time to response. That is what I can do.



It is trading, it is not marketing. If you like the system, you use it. If you do not like it, fine. As long as the sytem can help people to make money, people will like it.



By the way, do not expect to get exact performance of the system, even do not expect to get half of the performance. Even if you can get 100% annually from this system, $168/month is dirty cheap.















One coin always has two sides. I did buy 20K CKX while the day volume sometimes is less than 1k. You can see I held this position for one and half month. When CKX dropped from 16.5 to 11.75, my C2 account also had almost 100k lose. If a simulation position can be held for one and half month, I don’t think the size matters match. When simulation makes $100k fake money, if you can make $10k real money, that’s good enough.

I am only pointing out the need to match a target trading system (being shopped for on C2) to the practical reality of actual trading based on individual constraints (dollars available, ITM/email access, broker efficiency, investment goals, etc.). There seems to be a sufficiently large selection of systems to pick from on C2 that everyone can find something to suit their needs in terms of trading style. In the end, if a system is being traded with real money in a real account, the real world results are all that count. C2 is the first web site (or other venue) I’ve been able to find that attempts to track actual trading results from many published systems, and is extremely useful despite the fact that the results in the tables may not be perfectly correlated to what a real trading account might realize from each trade.

Again, if I might play the judge:



>Dave:

>A very small % of trades were made at 16PM. The record is there and everybody can go back to check.



I did. Out of your last 25 trades 4 were executed exactly at 4 pm, which was worthless as a signal for your subscribers. 16% is not exactly what I call a small %.



>This is a lose trade…



I am sorry Dave, that is not a valid argument. The problem was that your signals can not always be followed because of the timing. That trade could have been a winning one just as well, still your subscribers would have been left out of it…



>I might do not have enough time to publish trading signal.



I hate to break it to you, but that is the WHOLE POINT of C2. To publish trading signals to subscribers, so they can follow and profit from it. Otherwise it is just an exercise in monetary jerking off. :slight_smile:



>do not expect to get exact performance of the system,



Correct, there could be a small slipage between the owner and the subscribers, although better the system, smaller the difference.

Any subscriber should be able to expect at least 90% of the owner’s performance. Otherwise the system should be advertised accordingly.



> even do not expect to get half of the performance



You are wrong here Dave. It is a very bad system that can be

followed in a way, that the subscriber gets only half of the systemvendor’s performance.



Did you tell this to your subscribers in your system description?

I believe not…













Hey, just use your common sense. Do you think a system with anual 900% is only worth $168/month?



Give me your system with just 500% anualy performance which I can repeat if I follow, I can pay you $1680/month.



Man, just use your common sense.



BTW, I did put this in the system description. Go to check it out.



Also what I can see is: you built a lot of systems and got very bad performance, then destroied them, then built new sytem again, then got bad performance again. What a joke. :slight_smile:

Go to check your own systems. Could you tell me the difference between trading and talking? lol^_^

Dave, Dave, can’t take a little criticism? :slight_smile:



>Do you think a system with anual 900% is only worth $168/month?



Hey, it is your system, you charge as much as you want.



>Give me your system…



It is a logical fallacy called red herring. The subject matter was the followability of your trading signals and not my systems.



By the way if you haven’t noticed I just tried to help you and your subscribers to reach a common ground so both would understand better each other.



I apologize for trying to help you, since you obviously have a trouble understanding the purpose of the website…

But I give it to you, you did mention that subscribers might achieve less then your performance. See? My middlename is “objectivity”.

I think you need to understand the difference and correlation between simulation and real trading.

Sure I can take criticism, but I don’t like misleading. ~~~~

This is going to be my last one on the subject, I just don’t want you to look like talking to yourself. Thanks for the implication that only people with 100+% profit can post here criticism. Dave, you are a good trader, but logic is not your strength. By the way I still have a system in the top 15, just for your info.



I wish you good luck and lots of profits for your subscribers! Have a nice trading, and remember? No trades after 3:55 pm! :slight_smile:



Thanks. I will take your suggestions. I will try not to issue signal after 3:55PM. ^_^.



Have a good day!

My system makes over 500% a year and the calls can be followed 100%, so I look forward to Dave paying me 1680.00 per month. Anyway, good luck to you guys. I learned something from reading this forum.

Thank-You Peter. Dave just DOES NOT GET IT. If you go to his message board for this system and go back you will see folks complaining of this very same issue. They could not act on signals sent at 4pm (or 1600) with or without ITM. I think Dave should make all the trades in the world at 1600 and at market open, he just shouldn’t include these statistics in his “system performance” because anyone in the world trying to use his system could not benefit from these trades. His #s should be adjusted according to the possibility of the trade being made. If 16% of all his trades since inception were impossible to make for us, why is he allowed to use these as “Winning” trades or in his percentage return?