# Killed systems data **URL:** \ **Category:** C2\ **Created:** [October 15, 2022, 10:49am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832 "2022-10-15T10:49:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![InfinityC3274](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/infinityc3274/32/13320_2.png) [@InfinityC3274](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InfinityC3274)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/58 "2022-10-19T02:02:11Z")
@MatthewKlein , What is your view on adding a simple statistics to each developer profile? Cumulated “real money” P&L of all systems. Ie sum of profit&loss purely from auto-traded accounts (including TOS) of all systems created by the vendor. It should be simple to pullout and would quickly show whether a vendor has been able to generate actual profit for his subscribers overtime, with real money. We would screen out easily vendors who blow up accounts, vendors who game the system, vendors who lose money due to slippage, vendors who just rely on monopoly money, etc. It should be in the common interest of everyone here. Best, Manuel ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/59 "2022-10-19T16:47:04Z")
> [@InfinityC3274](#): > > Cumulated “real money” P&L of all systems. Potential subscribers wouldn’t be able to draw any meaningful conclusion from the total P/L of all systems because each C2 strategy has its own annual return and drawdown. Here is an example. P/L of system A: -$20 000 (minus $20K) P/L of system B: +$10 000 So the total P/L for this particular trader leader is -$10 000 (minus $10K), even though his last system (system B) is currently making 50% a year with a 10% maximum drawdown, while system A has already been abandoned a long time ago (but is still visible on the track record). Systems must be judged on a case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![InteractiveAssets](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/interactiveassets/32/13320_2.png) [@InteractiveAssets](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InteractiveAssets)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/60 "2022-10-19T18:49:07Z")
I like the idea of some sort of “real money” metric. I think it could help show if they are doing trades that are realistic with real money rather than purely hypothetical trade data. I also like that it could potentially help show if people see enough promise to actually tie money to it. There is a link somewhere to the top strategies by AUM. It still seems to suffer from the same thing as the popularity board. I’ll see if I can find it. Here it is [https://collective2.com/datastudies/strategyAUM](https://collective2.com/datastudies/strategyAUM) ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/61 "2022-10-19T19:37:59Z")
> [@InteractiveAssets](#): > > Here it is [https://collective2.com/datastudies/strategyAUM](https://collective2.com/datastudies/strategyAUM) As we can clearly see, there seems to be no statistical correlation whatsoever between AUM and C2 rank. I mean it seems natural to assume that C2 systems with a lot of real money under management must also have the highest rank, but that does not seem to be case, except for a couple of systems like LUCIDMNQ for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Kinetic](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/kinetic/32/17122_2.png) [@Kinetic](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Kinetic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/62 "2022-10-19T19:56:34Z")
And from my experience the highest aum systems may also only have a little over a dozen subs. ---
**Author:** ![Kinetic](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/kinetic/32/17122_2.png) [@Kinetic](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Kinetic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/64 "2022-10-19T20:07:58Z")
What I believe is happening is because some of those systems are well-established they are attracting larger investments from only a few individuals. Not huge returns but a sense of security. Gardcap told me he only has 20 subs, how is that possible? ---
**Author:** ![InteractiveAssets](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/interactiveassets/32/13320_2.png) [@InteractiveAssets](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InteractiveAssets)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/66 "2022-10-19T21:00:45Z")
If someone just invested in the strategies in that AUM board on August 25th, 2022 (earliest record I could find) and held the same strategies until today these are the results. Not great unfortunately. Of course, the metric you recommended @InfinityC3274 may be a good signal still since it is pretty different. | August 25th, 2020 to October 19th, 2022 | | | --- | --- | | AUM Weighted Return | -9.67% | | Average Strategy Return | -6.74% | | Max | 119.72% | | Min | -118.18% | | S&P Div Reinvested | 8.41% | | BND Div Reinvested | -16.86% | Here is a video showing how I got the numbers and a simple method to do it for some other leaderboards etc. without any coding. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Xovz3LZUvlY/maxresdefault.jpg "Backtesting C2 Strategies (No Coding)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xovz3LZUvlY) ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/67 "2022-10-19T21:31:51Z")
> [@InteractiveAssets](#): > > hese are the results. Not great unfortunately. Good study. In other words, collectively, the top AUM systems (on the list above) have been unable to beat the S&P 500 for the last two years. This shows, once again, that it is never a good idea to assume that some purely monetary metric (like AUM) has any predictive power. There are tons of mutual/hedge funds with BILLIONS in AUM that still cannot beat buy and hold. ---
**Author:** ![Kinetic](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/kinetic/32/17122_2.png) [@Kinetic](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Kinetic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 9:56pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/68 "2022-10-19T21:56:36Z")
In my opinion real estate is king, when it seems like the market is tanking it’s not so ez to press a button & bail only to have it rebound. Buy n Hold is another option that may make you 7% historically. Bottom line for the subs wanting to make larger sums easily and complaining about leaders, maybe you should have put yourself in a position to be able to afford 1-2 mill. in properties or long term stock holdings. This is a risky game and that’s stated everywhere on this site. And for those concerned with leaders coming back to create new systems, typically when someone does something subpar, they learn and improve upon their mistakes. Not always the case but more so than not it is. ---
**Author:** ![InfinityC3274](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/infinityc3274/32/13320_2.png) [@InfinityC3274](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InfinityC3274)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/69 "2022-10-20T00:26:05Z")
The purpose of the metric is not to rank systems. The purpose of the metric is to rank “system developers”, and help subscribers easily filter out unscrupulous developers with poor risk management skills (or care for clients’ money). The AUM data is interesting but it’s not the same thing. AUM does not mean P&L. P&L is built over time and with consistency. Conversely, a high AUM can be built in just a few months by greedy subscribers, even for very new systems. And some systems in the top10 AUM table are indeed very recent (and will unlikely pass the test of time). Also, assuming that AUM in August can predict performance over the next 2-3 months is not realistic. Why would that be the case? The correlation to C2star is also not relevant. Remember that Walter has two c2star systems (still active) but managed to have a 50% drawdown with just 1 trade with Momentum Trends, with real money subscribers (then took the system private). Overall, I just think more information is better than less information. No matter how a system may be performing currently… would you not want to know whether this system has been created by Radio Dalio (who made $$ for clients overtime) or Bernie Madoff (who lost $$ for clients)? ---
**Author:** ![InfinityC3274](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/infinityc3274/32/13320_2.png) [@InfinityC3274](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InfinityC3274)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/70 "2022-10-20T00:32:54Z")
Excellent video. Have you managed to “backtest” also C2star strategies in the same way? ---
**Author:** ![InteractiveAssets](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/interactiveassets/32/13320_2.png) [@InteractiveAssets](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InteractiveAssets)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/71 "2022-10-20T01:52:35Z")
Thank you!! There is this post. The thread is a bit messy and could use some updating but it does have some results. > [@Discussion for: Leader Board Performance vs. Market](https://forums.collective2.com/t/discussion-for-leader-board-performance-vs-market/14150/43): > > I finally updated my forward test. Here are the summary of the results. % Return 6/16/2020 to 5/24/2021 POPULARITY 15 3.9% C2 Star 15 -4.5% IRA 15 45.6% OLD TIMERS 15 31.7% TOS 15 Incomplete SPY 33.9% SPY w/ Dividends 36.1% % Return 9/12/2020 to 5/24/2021 POPULARITY 15 4.9% C2 Star 15 -5.8% IRA 15 34.0% OLD TIMERS 15 19.7% TOS 15 22.3% SPY 25.5% SPY w/ Dividends 26.9% Here is the completed table for this period of 9/12/2020 to 5/24/2021 Board… ---
**Author:** ![InteractiveAssets](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/interactiveassets/32/13320_2.png) [@InteractiveAssets](https://forums.collective2.com/u/InteractiveAssets)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 8:39am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/72 "2022-10-20T08:39:13Z")
> [@Kinetic](#): > > not so ez to press a button & bail only to have it rebound. Such a great point. I think so many people do better with real estate simply because it’s harder to buy and sell and you don’t get flashing red charts in an online login telling you your house or property dropped in value over the last 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![VG2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/vg2/32/238_2.png) [@VG2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/VG2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/73 "2022-10-20T13:59:50Z")
Just like ETFCapital keeps coming back, huh? I remember he also said he didn’t really need the stock market, he made his living in real estate. ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/74 "2022-10-20T19:59:44Z")
> [@InfinityC3274](#): > > Overall, I just think more information is better than less information It’s true, to some extent. But I really don’t think that a C2 list of the top Trade Leaders (those who made the most money for their subscribers) will give you ANY specific trading edge, just like the AUM list we just talked about. In fact studies show that mutual and hedge funds that make good money for their clients during a year or two tend to do very poorly the following years, and some of them even disappear into obscurity, never to be seen again. If simply following the current top traders/earners led to consistently great results, we would all be billionaires by now. Past performance is no guarantee of future results, let’s keep this in mind… ---
**Author:** ![GardCap](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gardcap/32/12306_2.png) [@GardCap](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GardCap)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/75 "2022-10-20T21:43:56Z")
I have had a total of about 20 paying subs in my history. I ran it for free for the first two years. ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/76 "2022-10-20T22:43:49Z")
> [@GardCap](#): > > I have had a total of about 20 paying subs in my history. I ran it for free for the first two years. Thanks for the clarification GardCap. By the way, a 3.7% maximum drawdown after almost 4 years (while the S&P dropped almost 10 times that much in 2020), all my respect! 👍 ---
**Author:** ![DogZebra\_Investing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/dogzebra_investing/32/5086_2.png) [@DogZebra\_Investing](https://forums.collective2.com/u/DogZebra_Investing)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 2:53am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/77 "2022-10-23T02:53:21Z")
> [@GordonGekko2](#): > > By the way, a 3.7% maximum drawdown after almost 4 years (while the S&P dropped almost 10 times that much in 2020), all my respect! 👍 Link to systems? Impressive. ---
**Author:** ![GordonGekko2](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/gordongekko2/32/17122_2.png) [@GordonGekko2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/GordonGekko2)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 2:59am UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/78 "2022-10-23T02:59:53Z")
> [@DogZebra\_Investing](#): > > Link to systems? Impressive. Good evening DogZebra, His system is this one: > **[GardCap Discretionary](https://collective2.com/details/126454200)** > > GardCap Discretionary - trading strategy on Collective2 Have a good weekend. ---
**Author:** ![DogZebra\_Investing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex028/user_avatar/forums.collective2.com/dogzebra_investing/32/5086_2.png) [@DogZebra\_Investing](https://forums.collective2.com/u/DogZebra_Investing)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832/79 "2022-10-24T13:32:11Z")
Congrats on your LT success my man. And I tip my hat to your TOS. 👍 [Previous page](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.collective2.com/t/killed-systems-data/15832.md?page=4)