# P&L/ Drawndown & risk **URL:** \ **Category:** C2\ **Created:** [June 26, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137 "2007-06-26T17:04:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FF\_tradingteam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@FF\_tradingteam](https://forums.collective2.com/u/FF_tradingteam)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/1 "2007-06-26T17:04:38Z")
When you look at the transactions of a system there last two columns on the right are called "drawdown & risk" and "P&L". Is there a statistics that summarizes the average P&L/ Drawndown & risk for all transactions? Thanks, Manuel ---
**Author:** ![JulesEllis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JulesEllis2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/JulesEllis2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/2 "2007-06-26T18:01:32Z")
That is the APD. It is the sum of the P/L divided by the sum of the DDs, for the trades where these numbers are available. That is not exactly what you describe, but better (in case you didn’t notice the difference: in your description the division is done first and the summing after that; in the APD the summing is done first and the division after that). ---
**Author:** ![HowardRoark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@HowardRoark](https://forums.collective2.com/u/HowardRoark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/3 "2007-06-26T18:33:32Z")
…and APD is the worst indicator out there…Use the Profit Factor instead… ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/4 "2007-06-26T19:40:38Z")
Now I know this is Palsun!!! He was the rant-and-rave king of the anti-APD crowd (which numbered one). After all, what can you possible learn by comparing a system’s profits against its drawdowns??? Good morning, Palsun! Long time no whining!!! ---
**Author:** ![JulesEllis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JulesEllis2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/JulesEllis2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/5 "2007-06-26T19:41:43Z")
So you believe that open drawdowns are not important? ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/6 "2007-06-26T19:47:30Z")
well, APD cannot be manipulated, while PF (Palsun Factor) can… Thus, much more interesting to Palsun. He always had rotten APDs… Hi, Palsun! Why the costume??? ---
**Author:** ![HowardRoark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@HowardRoark](https://forums.collective2.com/u/HowardRoark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/7 "2007-06-26T20:08:04Z")
I should add that APD is the newest and the worst indicator to have been developed in this century…It is essentially an arbitrary measure which is totally subjective… ---
**Author:** ![JulesEllis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JulesEllis2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/JulesEllis2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/8 "2007-06-26T20:15:15Z")
That was already my suspicion when he wrote on June 16 “This is not the correct way to validate an idea. …” A typical Pal obsession. Most of his posts reflect typical Pal-opinions, like “grandma shouldn’t be trading”. He hinted that he can’t hedge with options on leveraged instruments, but why would he need that if he doesn’t have a system? He also has the same obnoxious style of responding. I suspect that his post yesterday, when he responded as Palsun as if he was Brian, was actually an attempt to blow his cover. Like a child that takes its mask off to his mother, proud that he was able to fool her. Don’t become a secret agent Pal! ---
**Author:** ![JulesEllis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JulesEllis2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/JulesEllis2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/9 "2007-06-26T20:20:04Z")
Again a typical Pal opinion, entirely black & white: "…the worst indicator to have been developed in this century…" And again his obsession with objectivity: "…an arbitrary measure which is totally subjective…" The only difference with Pal is that the messages are shorter. Perhaps he finally started to take his pills, so we hear only the dominant voice? Ask your doctor to double the dosis, Pal. ---
**Author:** ![SamCook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SamCook](https://forums.collective2.com/u/SamCook)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/10 "2007-06-26T20:32:06Z")
Profit factor is good. See it shows the system below to be worthless. The vendor charges $999/month: System Details: Midas (V. Agg.) Hedge Profit Factor 1.1:1 ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/db5fbb/32.png) [@Index](https://forums.collective2.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/11 "2007-06-26T22:00:33Z")
Yes. Was it not you who before thought that something like a 95% drawdown was not particularly relevant because IT WASN’T REALIZED?? Try polling about 50 industry veterans, and find even one who would not laugh you out of their office. Funny, notice how APD has worked into some vendors calculations, for such a worst of the century indicator. Only Palsun would think max DDs compared to net profits were stupid. Funny how it poked holes in the Hold & Hope generations. Why not discard the mask now, bub? No new “Brian Milloy” would have such a sudden hatred for an indicator, since only Palsun had the ability to vent so effectively through an empty brain cavity against such things. What I liked about Palsun, was his ability to so well define the concept of someone who was a total waste of space. ---
**Author:** ![JulesEllis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JulesEllis2](https://forums.collective2.com/u/JulesEllis2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.collective2.com/t/p-l-drawndown-risk/5137/12 "2007-06-26T22:16:17Z")
"What I liked about Palsun, was his ability to so well define the concept of someone who was a total waste of space." I believe _that_ voice moved from Pal’s head to GA :=)) Pal isn’t good at lying. Actually that’s a good thing, isn’t it?