A few points. Let me firstly reassure you there are plenty of reasons why someone might prefer to use a pseudonym and not all of them are nefarious! Within the financial industry there are many onerous regulatory requirements for licensed professionals and it may be in their best interest to use a pseudonym in a public forum, so if someone wishes to remain anonymous that decision should be respected.
Secondly, you asked why would someone be interested in creating a third party track record unless they intended to make it a commercial product. Couple of reasons I can think of, what if they wanted to become a fund manager at a hedge fund or long only institution but they have no track record to speak of? This is their way to build one and use as part of their CV. Similarly if you were a prop trader at an investment bank you might want to mirror your trading here so should you ever need to seek employment elsewhere you could point to a 3rd party verifiable track record, because the IB certainly won’t release or confirm any details to any potential employer about what you did or didn’t make, it’s private unaudited intellectual property of the IB and you will have nothing to show for it unless you have some additional record elsewhere, and given their disclosure/trading regulations that would also mean you wouldn’t be able to physically trade so no real-life broker statements either I’m afraid.
Finally, whilst I commend your enthusiasm in seeking the fund that meets your requirements and you have clearly have firm ideas I urge you to have an open mind and visit the site of trading coach Van Tharp www.iitm.com. Van believes that a system is nothing but a set of beliefs about the market, and the more you believe something to be true the more you will have accumulated evidence to support it. Beau’s comment about getting into the vendor’s head is right, because unless your objectives and beliefs are completely aligned with those of the vendor then in the long run (especially with your IT background) you might benefit more from developing your own system by evaluating what it is you really believe and what your objectives really are and why, as only then can you set about truly achieving them. Another vendor can’t do that for you. Keep an open mind.
Well I’m bored and posting more than usual so I’m going to respond to this but I’m sure I’ll get no end of grief for it but I feel I’m probably speaking for a few people here so here goes.
I understand your frustration with vendors or posters here as you have made clear previously but you have to understand speaking as a former vendor to a newcomer to the site our perspectives are very different. A lot of people who are vendors now started out as subs of sorts looking for the holy grail of systems to meet their needs. Sometimes I think it would be easier for all vendors if subscribers would just lose money first on all the systems they ‘think’ are good and then when the penny finally drops (if that ever happens) they then realise what systems really work and flock to the best. Unfortunately what normally happens is by that stage they have either run out of money or they set about developing a system of their own having worked out where the answers lie.
It is a journey of self discovery, and it is a truly enlightening one for those fortunate enough to experience it, for in time with good discipline and patience they will ultimately reap their reward. On what is a journey of a thousand miles there are a few vendors on here who are rounding the final bend, you have just taken your first step.
If you take offence at that and it sounds condescending, I’m not going to apologise, just take a look at your own analyst page, you have already subscribed to two systems that at the time can only have had a track record of 2 weeks. As I said at the outset, our perspectives are very different.
No - I don’t take offense to it at all.
I realize that there are many opinions out there. It is good periodically to take a checkpoint and see what we get, N’est pas?
Regarding the two systems I have subscribed to - since the vendors offer free trials, I have elected to take them up on it. This allows me to get into the head of them , as Beau so correctly pointed out as a good idea.
I also needed to test the Autotrade functionality here, so they met my needs for that as well (by the way - the Gen1 interface to TB is not stable enough to be reliable at the moment). I have no expectation about putting real dollars into these systems for the reasons you have noted and I have articulated before.
In regard to your comment - I HOPE this site has more to offer than just a place where newcomers can come, lose their money and then elect to become vendors, too, out of frustration. It that is the Truth, that’s really disappointing. I wonder how many Vendors would agree with that assessment?
I did not come here to become a vendor. I want to buy one or more systems that I intend to manage my money with in the future in retirement.
If your comments are correct - then perhaps this site is not for me after all.
I know you have a strong opinion about aliases. I do, too.
I don’t buy insurance from people who call themselves Index or Broadsword (no offense). I don’t bank with people who use aliases. I don’t buy cars or anything from people who don’t use their real names. I don’t think I will buy systems that I might easily commit $100,000 or more to down the road from someone who uses a video game name, either. That’s not my idea about how Business should be conducted.
I hear what you’re saying. That is why I think a separate region strictly for developers is the right approach. You can call yourself anything you want there. We do it all the time in internal systems departments all over the world. We code name new products and systems.
But - we don’t so it when we engage the public or potential Customers.
I think there is room for both our opinions.
Thanks for weighing in.
Caio.
Skip
"Well I’m bored and posting more than usual…"
Vendors/investors that are unnerved during climax periods, likely have their “risk management” under control.gA
Actually that last post was in reply to Karl, not you Skip. But let me be clear I think C2 has a ton of things to offer but so many people approach it with so little knowledge. Unfortunately one of the reasons so many people lose money in the market is the barriers to entry are so low, all it takes is a few thousand dollars a couple of charts and an online account and suddenly people think they can start planning their retirement. It is no different to being a doctor or lawyer it will take years of training, hard work and education in order to reach the level required. Would you want a lawyer who just read ‘law for dummies’ a few days ago to defend you in a murder trial? No. Why is it that people think the financial industry is any different?
I agree.
There is no short-cut.
From what I’ve seen of the C2 site - I think there are significant improvements that would make it a much more productive site for both Customers and Vendors.
Like it or not, Customers need all the education and data they can get. It’s in everyone’s best interest to facilitate that if we can.
Notice how little chatter we are getting from the Customer side. Is that because they don’t understand, don’t have the time or, like Karl, are turned off by the lack of consideration and voice given to Customers on this site?
The answer may be All of the Above. The bottom line is that it is not a two-sided conversation.
And I, as a newcomer, who has a pretty good idea what I am looking for, am frustrated by the tone and disconnect I experience here. My nature is not to go silently. So I try and offer constructive comments.
What do you think of the 2 region idea for the site?
Skip
“I don’t buy cars or anything from people who don’t use their real names”.
If you bought something else on the internet would you really care about having a persons name to go with the sale? Would that change anything, or would the name of the website be sufficient? You know, like buying a computer from Dell, need a personal name to go along with that? If not why is trading different unless you would like to be able to take retribution out on someone in the future? Yes its true, I dont want anyone to know where to find me. Perhaps too many movies have been watched but there are most likely a few out there that could become enraged during a drawdown and I dont make enough money here to hire a bodyguard. This does not mean a major drawdown is expected, but stuff happens. (Gee, does this mean Im paranoid?) Anyway my personal business is not attached to my trading by choice but that takes nothing away from money made by subscribers. A system either is or it isnt and a name attached changes nothing.
I believe Dell computer was named after Michel Dell.
I think the 2 region idea has some merit, but as convenient as it might be for potential vendors and subs I have no idea how it might work as a fee-based business model for Matthew. I’m also fairly sure Matthew will protect some of the information you seek in the name of transparency as we have often had discussions around subscriber numbers for systems which should always be protected. Additionally I don’t understand the name thing, what difference would it make if I made a name up and put John Smith, you would have no idea if that was a real name or not yet that would make it OK, but a one word pseudonym gives you problems? I don’t understand that at all and I think that if you had a financial background you wouldn’t even think twice about it, within trading in particular it is understood that people often have very good legitimate reasons to protect their identity especially in a virtual environment. With regards the other points I am always open to well constructed ideas and beneficial change so I welcome your input to that end.
Correcto!!
I agree I am willing to part with a few hundred dollars to buy a TV or whatnot over the Internet - but… I’m only committing to no more than say… $1,500 total AND I probably have an addrress to send it back to plus a refund/return policy. Plus - there are regulatory bodies that supposedly (not the SEC lately) that are looking out for my best interest as well.
I’m not becoming on of your subscribers for the opportunity of giving you $1,200 a year or whatever in subscription fees. Frankly, if you have a product that meets my buying criteria, the subscription fee is somewhat unimportant. I’m buying your product because I am thinking about committing $50,000 or $100,000 to it - year in and year out.
That is a WHOLE different ballgame that just buying a $500 or $1,500 TV from some anonymous vendor over the Internet, my friend.
You bet I want to know I’m doing business with - just look around at the Madoff scandal for current events.
If you’re not willing to come of the weeds enough to stand up and be counted, that’s all I need to know. I’m movin’ on. No exceptions.
This is the business you chose - I didn’t. I’m a Customer and I’m telling you what my requirements are. If you choose not to meet them, best of luck.
Thanks for weighing in.
I am not taking offense at your post but just want to set the record straight. The two systems you refer to on my analyst page were, as I stated on that page, just for a half day test period (in neither case did I have to pay a subscription fee) in order to see if any of these rapid fire systems can work in real life - it was not based on the track record. BTW people appreciated my effort and feed back, just click on the "Most interesting notes" button on that page.
In addition, I am happily subscribed to a few profitable systems who have stood the test of time either here or on other sites or have otherwise convinced me they are worth a try with a small amount of risk capital. Sorry, yours are not among them, even though they have merit, but one of them has a much larger drawdown than I am comfortable with and the other one is ok but I prefer a higher Calmar ratio. But I give you credit for not charging for them and therefore indicating that you have interest other than commercially marketing them.
I don’t trust the singers Bono, Sting and Seal.
Ok, I blew that one, but you get the point I hope.
Just curious, what do you do with a name if you have one? Will it make you all warm and fuzzy or just what? I’m serious here.
Skip et al,
I got through half your post (along with all the above) and am overloaded. Phewww!!!
First off thanks again for your aspirations toward clarity, openness and constructive contribution to improve Collective2.
I am not sure C2 has much of a “customer” (measured by capital allocation toward systems) base. For my purposes it doesn’t matter. I only need the track record and a bit of advertising dollars to get me to the next level (managed accounts).
Confidence is absolutely true as a necessity (for me). I have ALWAYS known from Day 1, in October 2008 what it was that I am looking for and have found that I can actually do. I have only improved upon it since then - - and markedly.
My first pass at C2 led me to believe that a simple screen of systems traded more than one year would “tell the tale”. Rank them by APR and then “drill down” to find what the site has to offer wrt any REAL value. Yes, these few may eventually stop working, be abandoned or crash and burn. . .but if you diversify amongst a few and set a predetermined STOP LOSS level most can do fine (to eventually far exceed random costs, general headache - not to mention the possibility to add an additional, substantial capital allocation).
All the rest is noise. Eu (btw: congrats on achieving marked, continued profitability) has it down pat wrt the basic requirements customers (and as he points out, vendors) must “work out” to ensure any degree of success trading capital with C2.
It has always amazed me how little the contributory remarks pass through this site. Perhaps there are not many actually engaged with the business of making said endeavors much of a success. Customer remarks are sadly quiet and most vendors only prove how little (myself included) they know.
Skip has some really good ideas regarding bringing both sides of the aisle together and is a win-win situation for all. I have a B.S. in Optical Engineering and many years of project management at some very high and immensely profitable levels. I also have gotten nothing short of A’s in math all the way through every Calculus class along with a couple of courses in statistics. I, however do not make this effort unless I can be hugely profitable over 5 - 30 year periods WITH LITTLE EFFORT. In other words, I know what works, but do not and WILL NOT design around advance or complicated system design.
Now I have much more reading of the many subsequent posts that I’ve yet to read.gA
Notice that you opened with as convenient as it might be for vendors and sub - that’s the whole point. I think there are plenty of ways that Matthew can build a profitable business model from what I’m suggesting.
With regard to subscriber counts - there’s no reason not to be able to collect and present summarized data (unless one is afraid of doing so). The same with many other things here.
Anything else is BS.
I just suggest that Vendors who pay money to use this site ought to be asking for a lot more. I, as a Customer, am.
Thanks.
“I just suggest that Vendors who pay money to use this site ought to be asking for a lot more. I, as a Customer, am”.
Agreed Skip, it makes me feel like there just aren’t many customers here. It’s good to here from one. Wasn’t trying to give you a hard time about the name thing, just don’t get it is all. But the customer is always right they say!
I am not replying to my post (was just convenient to click) and eerily many of the threads I responded to had me as the last poster?!?
I hope that is not happening here, since Skip and others have some valid points. Unfortunately, after reading the rest of the thread. . .I do not have much else to add.
If you can manage/subscribe to a trade-able system(s) SUCCESSFULLY from the end of year one to the end of year two with 10-50k in capital, you might consider adding another 50k and try for year three.***
Many have expressed how things should or shouldn’t be done in this biz contrasted and compared to other venues. Keep in mind that true success in this biz is inordinately more difficult to achieve than most every other.
Even if this was a website to track the very best of Hedge Funds with all the statistical comparisons (aka Jules) to boot - - chances are you would still find precious few that could trade for three years compounding 75% that don’t lose 75% in the fourth year.
There is much needed improvement in the area of honest education and learning from each other to share with vendors and customers to get anything that resembles VALUE from this site or business (financial rep credentials may not help much, either).
Constructive dialogue IS, however a valid point of entry and I vehemenently encourage it!!!
Regards,
Gilbert
***it MUST be expressed and resoundingly ingrained into C2 traffic that by a large measure of comparison the following is absolutely true wrt added value:
MUCH gain can routinely be accomplished IF a relatively small sum of cash is invested in an approach that not only beats the market by a few percent but AVERAGES 30-75% per year - - with CONTROLLED RISKS (even if it doesn’t work best in ALL markets).
Comparatively LITTLE (pales in comparison) is achieved by finding a TEMPORAL WINNER (even if 300% for three months). For one, only 5-10k is likely to be allocated toward such risky ventures and two, is MORE DIFFICULT to achieve the expected selection.
Training prospects and subscribers with the mathematics of compounding various APR’s between 30 and 75% over a five year period may be the main help that is needed for them.
[LINKSYSTEM_30875056]
Hmmm, goal: to make a lot of money quick and easy
gamble or invest?: invest in gambling systems
Open 7.5k account and subscribe: system made 100% in one month
Expectation: will make 100% in next month
Exit strategy if successful: pull money out with account now 15k
Exit strategy less successful: went for third month and lost most back, account now 10k confidence near shattered.
Enter next system: Oops! Reality hits it tanks. Account still at 7.5k
Enter next system: same result, now I am shattered - - let my money go to $500 I pulled out to at least buy a mountain bike. I’ll never invest again.
Or
Invest a bit more (15k) in a “quality” system for one year and add second half after second year after 50% return for one more year. Account now totals from 30k investment over 2 years: 56.25k
Now youngster is much smarter and still getting “rich quick” (he/she is still very young).
CONFIDENCE IS MARKEDLY BOOSTED and expectations are a near certainty that without any additional capital long(er)-term goals WILL BE MET - SOON!!!
Go figure!
OK guys, I am done for now PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A REPLY EVEN TO ANOTHER so I do not feel like I have the last say and am an arrogant SOB!
Skip—I suppose I should have been more clear when referring to alternative investment products once only available to hedge fund style investors (sounds like a cheap advertisement for C2)—of course licensed funds tend to have more money, more experienced managers, and can engage in higher capital trading strategies which most subs couldnt handle without a managed account anyway—you will indeed find poorer products here as a whole due to the low barrier of entry—$100 for a no-risk low liability business isnt bad, particularly given the abysmal success rate of this profession anyhow.
The flip side of the coin for a sub is that you have access to a myriad of strategies which you otherwise wouldnt get from a broker. Vetting these systems in the Grid based on lifespan, metrics, preferred asset class, and cost (of course look at capital requirements too) will leave you with a handful of potential candidates. Since you obviously seek a vendor that treats you and your money with the same respect that was necessary to treat someone to actually earn it in the first place, you inevitably begin the human screening process—send a few private messages and hopefully you end up with handful of promising candidates. Because this has all has been so overstated I wonder if you shouldnt take the suggestion to develop and not subscribe, particularly given your technology background and the importance you seem to place on the requisite confidence (peace of mind?) in order to trade a system. You could hypothetically waste thousands of dollars on recommendations from anonymous vendors, be left with little knowledge about why their black boxes failed, or you can attempt to do it yourself and potentially build a decent little profit machine on the back of calculated trials and errors that you inherently have intimate knowledge of. If 90% of doctors were as bad as traders than I might recommend taking the MCATs while you;'re at it…
