Still do not understand auto-trade scaling

Hi,

Lets say that I have 30.000 USD in my interactive broker-account.

I choose to use “Bob Dylan” and “Extreme-os”-strategies…

“extreme-os” has 25.000 as start-capital
"Bob Dylan" has 10.000 as start-capital,

Which is more than I have…

So, should I choose - method 1:

“extreme-os”: 80% of scaling, hence 20.000 USD
"Bob Dylan" : 100% scaling, hence 10.000 USD
Summary: 30.000 USD…

Have I understood scaling correct?

OR, should I choose method 2

“extreme-os”: 50%
“Bob Dylan”: 50%
Summary: 100% of my capital

Best Regards
Mikael W

You understand it pretty well, but let me add some further thoughts.

Extreme-os is a stock system, and thus the trade sizes recommended by it can in fact be multiplied by almost any scaling factor you desire. Example: If the system usually trades 100 shares of stock, then a 50% scaling factor is perfectly fine: you’ll trade 50 shares.

But Bob Dylan is a futures system, and here things become a little trickier. You can’t really trade 50% of a futures contract. So, if you type in that you want a “Scaling” of 50%, and then the C2 Model trades 1 contract, you will trade:

50% x 1 contract = 0.5 contracts --> (C2 always rounds downward) == 0 contracts!

In other words, you will never trade.

So in general, with futures systems, you’ll want a multiple of 100% scaling, i.e. 100% scaling, or 200%, etc.

Now, if you look at the system’s track record, you’ll see that it consistently trades 1 contract at a time (sometimes 2). Since the initial margin of the @ES is approx $6,000, you should be able to handle two contracts, even if the system holds them overnight.

However, if you feel uncomfortable about the possibility of trading two contracts, you can do the following:
Set Scaling = 100%
Set Max-Contracts = 1

In this case, you will always trade one contract. In those rare cases where the Model account trades 2, your “max” setting will prevent the second contract from opening.

Of course, my entire answer is caveated by the following: I don’t have any idea what your risk preference is, and you need to make all trading decisions independently. I’m merely trying to explain how the technology can be made to work under the parameters you described. Remember that you can lose all your money trading.

On that cheery note, good luck! :smile:

Ignore starting capital the starting capital for a system could be 10K but it could be now trading 100K .

Treat systems like stocks you may want to allocate 10% of your portfolio for FB and 20% for Apple its your decision . You don’t look at share price when you do that , ie you don’t give more allocation for high priced stocks .

Stocks systems are flexible and scaleable most of the time , however futures systems that trades 1 lot arent , and you need to have the same funds as the system , for example bob dylan it trades 1 lot with 52K , so you need near that amount in your account or you would be leveraging the system up which is risky .

Thanks for both of your answers, now I understand it much better!

Br
Mikael W

If you set to max contracts=1 and system opens up 5 short. I assume that means you would open 1 short.

When system closes first short, does that one short close as well-----5 shorts (system), 1 short (account), system covers 1 contract. What does account do? Thanks.

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I agree, it is difficult to tell what kind of capital you need to trade the system, difficult to see what the system is currently trading vs what you should scale to based upon your capital and/or even if you are able to scale down (in the case of futures that trade 1 contract).

If you aren’t supposed to look at starting capital of the system to scale to your starting capital, then what measure are you supposed to use?

I tried contacting support a couple times to get help understanding what I need to consider to set my scaling, but they refused to help indicating they cannot provide trade advice. When I first started auto-trading, I had to change it many times until my orders at Interactive Brokers were no longer getting rejected due to insufficient funds.

I also contacted the developer of the system itself and they have been very helpful at helping me appropriately configure my scaling.

Just to summarize what I did to setup the autotrading correct.

  1. First check which strategies are using stocks only.
  2. Checked which total portfolio value the strategy has, for example: 200.000 USD, not the “start value”, because that is not relevant at all for setting up the scaling

So summary:
Strategy 1 has 200.000 in total value
Strategy 2 has 300.000 in total value

So, now lets say that I have 30.000 on my IB-account.

Strategy 1
Now, I took my capital that I wanted to invest in that strategy… 20.000 USD.
20.0000 / 200.000 == 10% scaling for strategy 1.

Strategy 2
Now, I took my capital that I wanted to invest in that strategy… 10.000 USD.
10.0000 / 300.000 == 3% scaling for strategy 2.

This has worked for me…

There has been some other issues that C2 is not buying that I can share…

  1. When a position(stock) is sold, it takes arount 3-4 busineess days before the money is actually available to be used to buy again, which means, you can not set your whole capital as scaling, you need room for the settlement of you money.

  2. Some stocks are only sold in 100-pairs… so if you have 5% set… C2 should buy 5 stocks… BUT since the stock is set only to buy in 100-pars… you will buy 0.

Thanks for summarizing again. Still confused :smile:

Where is the “Total Value” found… and if this is so important why does C2 not make it a main statistic in the header of the strategy home page?

For example, looking at Maximus Decimus strategy. I clicked on Statistics and do not see a label called “Total Value” anywhere. Furthermore, they actually provide a comment in the description that says “Recommended Amount to Trade : At least 50k.”. Why isn’t this a consistent field across all strategies, like on the statistics page? So do you set your auto-scale based upon that 50K, or this “total value” that you mention?

I’ve used other services that seem to make this a lot easier and more intuitive, and I think C2 could improve on this a little. Maybe it’s just my ignorance. I should be able to enter a total amount that I want to invest in that strategy and it should automatically set the scaling. This seems to be the logical way that any typical user might set things up.

So if you go in under https://www.collective2.com/system93232156 , the “Maximus Decimus”-strategy, you see in the chart of the strategy, that it’s current value of that portfolio is currently 71000 USD…

So, if you have 71000 you would use 100%, but if you only have 7100, you should set 10%.

Someone from C2, should maybe confirm this… since I just started to use C2…

Thanks Mikael. I guess this makes sense. Easier than I was making it out to be.
If you ask C2, they will respond by saying they cannot provide investment advice. (I’ve tried, ha!)

We’re sorry about not being able to give specific advice on this matter–we’re hamstrung by regulations designed to protect you :wink:

I would however point out that 10% of that system–Maximus Decimus–would not result in 10% of the system’s return because it’s not possible to trade 10% of 1 or 2 Futures contracts: with that scaling factor signals would need to be multiples of 10 contracts each for you to scale perfectly. The system has recently bought or sold 1 and 2 contracts at a time, and held positions up to 7 contracts. What this means is, in this case, unless you are able to match the system’s equity you will have a different risk profile because you’ll be missing out on some trades or your positions will be capped by your “max position quantity” setting.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, as I wrote above…

If the strategy use “Futures”, I assume that one should use 100% at all times…