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That part of open position is taken care of by the Maximum open loss criteria. However the ALL time maximum equity drawdown of $5000 is the concerning part.
If I have a profit of $10000 on an open position, but due whatever reason, unforseen news, trump tweet or whatever gets taken out at at say plus $5000. Despite investor made $5000 it would fail the C2star criteria. For any swing or larger time frame traders this scenario is bound to happen at some point.
Just trying to point out this caters more towards scalp/intraday traders. Which isn’t exactly suitable for scaling up, or even be used in the Scout alpha and hedge fund.
Base it on Closed positions would solve this problem. Like I mentioned you got the open position losses covered by another rule which is enough imo.
That is spot on. Most successful (in terms of long-lasting) / low-drawdown systems are by their nature based on a larger time frame strategy (inc swing trading). It would fail. And I am not sure what kind of client C2 is attracting here, it is confusing, and the cynic in me (usually at a late hour!) keeps coming back to this same conclusion (sorry Matthew) that this needs a lot more work before it can be of true benefit to both tradeleaders and subscribers.
This is related to the numerous discussions regarding the maxDD calculation where open profit drawdown whilst still in profit is calculated as a drawdown. The counter argument is that the maxDD calc method is the industry standard which caters for investors opening positions at any time whilst following
a strategy (ie worst case peak-valley drawdown).
C2 will never change its maxDD method or introduce an alternative maxDD to cater for the misleading open profit drawdown, hence all long term strategies will fail the c2star DD criteria.
Question: Would the Warren Buffett long term value investing pass the c2star criteria?
I doubt it, the c2star DD criteria using the industry standard maxDD calc method would kill the strategy even whilst it is in profit, but hey it is the industry standard so it must be right… ha ha.
This is where C2star can shine and try something new if it’s indeed aiming for talents to be used in funds and scaling up. The companies @TradeMate mentioned, one does it with realtime drawdown, the other one with closed position drawdown when it comes to daily/weekly limit. The latter is more successful. And BOTH eliminate trailing drawdown after a certain profit target is hit.
I trust C2 want to be different and not in the money for failures, they can easily implement a drawdown stat just for c2star that’s different from normal strategies here.
One Idea I can give is to do the total drawdown calculation criteria at end of each day. This gives 60minute and daily timeframe players a chance. And shouldn’t have any problem with negative open trade drawdowns since that’s already controlled by another criteria.
I don’t understand why you keep whining guys. So you want c2 to tweak the program so you can pass it and get certified and therefore get paid monthly?!
You see the irony, you keep complaining because you cant pass the program. Maybe its not for you so keep working on your own systems to attract subscribers and leave this program for other traders.
Warren buffet wont pass the c2 star program but he is not a trader nor he will attract that many subscribers here either with his long term trading and severe drawdowns. His style isnt suitable for c2 anyway.
IMO the max dd criteria is calculated professionally here at c2. Many subscribers join systems at the peak and they may join open positions at the time, so for these subscribers the open positions drawdown even if it is still in the black it is a real dd and a loss for them because they joined late.
So what you are asking for guys about changing the open positions max drawdown calculation method is ridiculous.
I am currently running a model under the C2 Star evaluation program and TOS using my live IB account to drive the trades… It actually makes me focus much more on tight risk control and I see the value of having that risk accountability, makes me laser focused. My issue is with the $125 sub price, almost not worth it to open it up for subs, any chance this will be raised in the future? I mean shouldn’t a TOS futures system be able to demand a higher price? For 88 bucks per head (70% payout), it’s really not worth it imo.
Yeah, admittedly, it’s a bit hard to find. You can find it when you view the site as a Trade Leader, under “Trade Leader Tools” - as this screen shot shows:
Currently, not yet. Once the program reaches a critical mass we’ll make it more accessible as a criteria for investors on the C2 Platform. I’ll keep you posted.
Very difficult to succeed. The rolling maximum 24-hour drawdown of $2000 is a killer. I will be surprised if any futures trading system gets certified. Good luck!
What would you consider a reasonable rolling max drawdown for a certification program designed to find excellent strategies?
This is not a trick question; I’m sincerely curious. Before answering, put yourself in a follower/investor’s shoes. If you invest $50K in a futures strategy, how many thousands of dollars are you willing to lose before you throw in the towel?
Obviously different strokes for different folks, but I suspect not much more than $2,000-ish for most investors. Your thoughts?
i would say between $2k and $5k is most investor can handle. Prob drawdown over 10% is when they start to question the strategy or re-evaluate the risk & reward factors.
I am referring to the “rolling 24-hr drawdown” of $2000 and/or 5% of equity. There has to be some breathing room for any trade to develop. And this is too much (or too low) for any strategy to overcome, because at the same time, we have to keep the bet size big to meet the 1% capital deployment requirement. Very difficult to have both.
So if you ask me, I think this 24-hr rolling drawdown is redundant. Just my $0.02.
I started out my strategy “Valkyrie” under the C2 Star evaluation rules and lasted about a month or so before the 2k trailing dd caught up to me. I still run it (TOS), but not as a Star prgm. The super stringent rules force you to change your trading methodology and experience style drift, and I felt it was like driving a stick with my one hand tied behind my back. I like the idea, but lets be realistic here, very very few top tier traders could pull this off long term and still produce strong returns. And the max $125 listing fee was another hurdle I had a hard time swallowing, just not worth it for the leader. Besides, I think any system that should be taken seriously has to be TOS and that should be part of the Star requirement…my 2 Cents
$2K drawdown on $50K capital is only 4% max dd. Plugging in 10 trades, surviving a mere 30 days, having a minimum annual return of 30%, and a max dd of 4% shows only 4 systems on C2 meeting that criteria. None, zero, nada have made it for 90 days. A reasonable, realistic, but still strong % dd could be more like 12%. 10 systems meet that criteria, with 41 having done it for 30 days.
