Matthew,
Here is an exerpt from one of your past post concerning this topic:
"Now, what should C2 do? Here’s what it does do. It waits 10 seconds for all autotraders to get filled, and then - those that don’t get filled - get filled at market. This is the only way to keep all accounts in sync with your system"
I beg to differ. This is not the only way.
Your solution to everyone’s account not getting filled is just wrong.
I for one do not want my limit orders signals converted to market orders – as this may cause a tremendous amount of slippage on exits.
How much trouble is it to reimplement this if I give you a better solutions?
I have the solution. Are you willing to listen or is the “Just Touched” solution set in stone?
P J Trader Strategies
Hehe… not big deal.
I have the solution.
The solution is very simple and you don’t need to be a genius. Instead of FIFO (first in/first out) for limit orders systems C2 has to use FILO (first in/last out) for autotraders of the systems. In the case a system vendor who uses limit orders would be forced to close a position by last autotrader fill. It’s simple and elegant way to relay syncing of system positions to the system vendor instead of not very natural way of forced sync by C2’s hardcoded and not natural rules.
Of course, if a system has no autotraders there is still C2’s hypothetical fills engine in place.
Eu
I, for one, would love to hear your solution. I know of at least 2 other groups that do lead/follower account type of systems, and they follow the same general method as C2. Some minor differences in exact implementation, but the end effect is to have all follower accounts the same position wise as the lead account.
Please share.
Kevin
In the six years we’ve been developing AutoTrading, we’ve given this a lot more thought than most people have, and the method we do it is the only way we think it can be done. If your system breaks because you get slippage when you enter limit orders that are not market-clearing (i.e. there is not sufficient trading volume to clear the orders at the prices you enter), then frankly your system is not tradable in real life, with real money. It may be a great system in a hypothetical world of quote feeds and fantasy, but no one with money can trade it.
I agree with Matt, but I still think having more vendor and/or subscriber access to the timing of market order conversion and/or skipping a signal that does not "market clear" after a certain amount of time, would be an improvement.
If your system breaks because you get slippage when you enter limit orders that are not market-clearing (i.e. there is not sufficient trading volume to clear the orders at the prices you enter)
At which time frame? As you defined by whatever reason 10 secs? Try to explain it people who use limit orders in options or who forms a position with limits orders in few days and where partial fills are part of a system.
then frankly your system is not tradable in real life, with real money.
Nope. it means only that the system isn’t tradeable in 10 secs time frame with forceful market orders defined by C2. You misplaced C2 not natural requirements that were made by developers with real market trading. (smile) And you’re trying to prove that C2’s requirements exist in the market. So instead of moving C2 closer to the market you prefer to declare that only C2 is real market and nothing exists outside of C2. Well… C2 isn’t even a broker so you’re speaking from fantasy word. imho of course.
Eu
Matthew, I apologize. I mispoke without thinking the entire solution thru.
You are absolutely right.
The “Just Touched” scenario should stay in place.
But, this is exactly one-half of the solution to the problem.
I have 11 years experience as a Windows Business System Developer, so I think you should hear me out. The other half of the solution is an extremely simple implementation on your order entry screen. But, the explanations of behind what it’s purpose is and the reasons behind it are too extensive to explain here.
The implementation on the order entry screen should not take more than 20 mins to complete.
But, the reason require a presentation, I think in person.
Send me the following and let me spend just 30min to an hour with you:
1) 1 day paid hotel fare near you
2) roundtrip airfare
3) $300 fee
You can email me if interested.
Thanks,
P J Trader Strategies
James and Eu,
Based on the information provided here previously by Matthew I also thought that C2 converts "limits if touched" to market orders after 10 seconds. However, I just recently found out that does not apply if you are using TradeBullet. There the user can specify after how many seconds a fill reported by C2 should be converted to a market order.
P. J. Trader,
If you think your system is working in its present form and with the C2 limitations, I suggest you offer a trial period so one can try with a minimal amount if your system is working in real life.
Thanks for the advice Karl,
But, I have already thought long and hard about this. And I think that the subscription price coupled with the trades and statistical evidence is enough to entice people to sign up. The price is ridiculously low for this type of system as far as I’m concerned. So, sorry but I am not ready to give freebies just yet. Come on, it just $85/mo.
P J Trader Strategies
The point I am trying to make here is that so far nobody can say if your system has a chance to work in real life or not.
Karl,
Sure, my comment is mostly geared toward Gen3 auto trading. I have my own interface that does whatever I want with a signal. Convert a future trade to an option trade, etc., but it requires additional hardware.
Jim
Karl,
My MoneyBuilder system is shadowing the trades of the Daily_Cash system right now.
Why not run your test on that one for only $15 per profitable trade?
If you like it then you can sign up for the Daily_Cash at the $85/mo flat rate.
Isn’t that a fair compromise?
I have an even better suggestion: Matthew will let you sign up for free to auto trade your system on C2. This way you not only can report about the real life results here but the trades will also show up on your system page when you click "show real life fills from subscribers". Would this not be the best solution?
Forgive me for being blunt, but anybody offering a new controversial system without offering a free trial, long enough to get several trades tested, is a big red flag for me.
"But, the reason require a presentation, I think in person.
Send me the following and let me spend just 30min to an hour with you:
1) 1 day paid hotel fare near you
2) roundtrip airfare
3) $300 fee "
you already realized half your asserted suggestion was wrong, but you are willing to let Matthew spend $1200 or so on you for the other half without any proof other than your belief, when you say it takes 20 minutes to implement?
How many other people have taken you up on similar offers?
Good luck with that.
Karl,
I already have an autotrade subscriber.
On the otherhand, if you need more convincing then just keep watching my track record for the next month or so.
But,the only danger of your watch it for that long is that I may (or may not) reach the total subscriber count that I am looking for (which is my secret) by then. Because, once I hit that limit, I won’t be taking anymore subscribers.
If you want to put those restrictions on yourself then that is up to you.
But, I think the MoneyBuilder offer is fair because you pay nothing if the trade doesn’t work out. But, at this point, I don’t know why it wouldn’t work out (as you can see my confidence is growing with my growing track record. lol.)
So, Peace. Ok?
- grrr, we need an edit post feature, if you get the chance, MK…
Just think about the enormous advertising impact you would gain if you autotraded successfully your own system on C2, far more than any ads placed on this site. You would get lots of prospective subscribers if it performs as the hypotheticals show and you could charge whatever the market bears for such a sure money maker.
There is no reason why you would not want to do that if you think your system is working in real life. The fact that you refuse to do so should give pause to any potential subscriber.
1) 1 day paid hotel fare near you
2) roundtrip airfare
3) $300 fee
What, no first class travel? No limo at the airport? Per diem for meals?
Some people hold themselves in such high regard it just amazes me. The market, though, has a way of taking care of people that are too full of themselves.
For your sake, I hope I’m the one full of it.
TP
Attacks like these are the reason you will never see me starting my own forum around here.
I’m not full of myself. I am a legit programmer who is not charging an arm and a leg for consultation.
I have a vested interest in seeing that Matthew does the right thing.
So, I’m speaking up.
So what’s your problem?
