Hi,
I would like to perform a survey of how many C2 subscribers (excluding system vendors) are still trading C2 systems after 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year? I think it would be an accurate evaluation of whether people can really make money by trading C2 systems (or else why would they stay?).
As for myself, I had been trying different C2 systems on and off for 3-4 months. My experience is that I have a net lost overall despite the promising theoretical return for all those systems (fill issues, slippages, platform stability, unrobust system …etc) and I am about to throw in the towel. I started to develop a theory that people come and gone but never stay, and C2 is entirely supported by a constant fresh supply of newbies from the Internet. Rarely would they stay for the long term once they found out what it is all about.
If there are C2 old timers out there (over 3 months), please response to this survey to help clarify the longer term picture.
Cheers,
Gordon
You are too greedy and chose the wrong systems.
Like most of the traders, you botch your due diligence work and chose only the top of the list of the so called best systems, wich are unrealistic.
I guess 100% return per year is not enough for you?
So don’t be surprised if you get hardly punished for being greedy!
Did you seriously contemplate the possibility that 1000% and more systems were realistic?
Have a look at risk-averse, if someone loses 1 buck with this system I’ll come and give the money back in person…
Many systems are very disappointing, it’s no surprise, but does it mean that C2 is useless? Subscribers simply have to be wise enough to stay away from untradable systems.
Take no offense if I’m straight speaking, nothing personal, but I don’t agree with you and I have to tell what I think…
Jerome
Okay… I know you aren’t looking for opinions from a system vendor but…
It is tough to get an accurate statistical measure for reality success when looking at a given system. I have a system with a very low realism factor (38), but other than one trade I am carrying there should be no problem getting fills at the stated prices with the volume of stock I am trading. I see Vicinoo has a number of stock based systems riding high on the charts, but the Vicinoo system has a low realism score (33 in one of the systems); I don’t know if you have tried one of these systems or not and what kind of slippage there is on such systems. Something I would like to see is a top-10 list as ranked by subscribers; translate the current star rankings to an average weighted by number of active subscribers - and then list it in the ‘Best Systems’. For example a mean ranked 4 star system with 25 subscribers would out-rank mean rank 4.5 star system with 20 subscribers. It wouldn’t be necessary to show the total number of subscribers a system has, just the relative position in the grand scheme of things.
One other aspect of the Collective 2 world is not all system vendors are necessarily trying to attract subscribers (i.e. not necessarily looking at real world returns) but are using the validation system as a resume for better things. A good question to ask is how many vendors trade their own systems?
Finally, there is the issue of how many systems can Collective 2 support? Listing a system is not cheap if you are not getting any subscribers (sorry Matthew!), meaning systems which may be more realistic and sustainable to both vendor and subscriber in practical terms, can fall by the wayside through lack of support and excessive costs. However, I don’t think it would be a good idea to drop a listing charge altogether as this would just encourage a slew of poorly supported systems that could easily be abandoned and only increase operating costs (which would be passed on to vendors).
JMOs,
Declan
Amazing - you asked a simple question, if there are any subscribers who have been trading real money for more than 3 months, what are your results. I would also like to to know the answer to this and would hope that no more system vendors feel the need to post unwarranted attacks (Jerome) or derail the modest goals of this thread (Declan).
Perhaps everyone else could start their own threads to discuss why subscribers make bad choices or how C2 could better rank systems. As far as I know there is no limit on the number of threads you can start so there is no need to hijack someone elses if you have a different topic to discuss.
As for me, I don’t qualify as I’ve been C2 trading for only 2 months now; I’m basically flat minus the modest cost of the TB & system subscription fees (I’m on my 2nd subscription now). Thanks.
Amazing - you asked a simple question, if there are any subscribers who have been trading real money for more than 3 months, what are your results. I would also like to to know the answer to this and would hope that no more system vendors feel the need to post unwarranted attacks (Jerome) or derail the modest goals of this thread (Declan).
Perhaps everyone else could start their own threads to discuss why subscribers make bad choices or how C2 could better rank systems. As far as I know there is no limit on the number of threads you can start so there is no need to hijack someone elses if you have a different topic to discuss.
As for me, I don’t qualify as I’ve been C2 trading for only 2 months now; I’m basically flat minus the modest cost of the TB & system subscription fees (I’m on my 2nd subscription now). Thanks.
I agree with Pete. I subscribed to my first system in early October, so I’m almost at the 3 month mark, testing and subscribing to about 6 or 8 system mostly short-term fast systems trading stocks and futures. My experiences have been enlightening, and like Pete, I am roughly flat overall, down slightly with commission and C2 costs. Although the experience so far as a subscriber has not been profitable financially, I have learned invaluable lessons, the most important of which so far I would have to say is:
“use SMALL scaling/position sizing”.
You can ALWAYS scale up easily if a) the real-life results over a significant term match up to historical C2 reports and b) the real-life results are profitable and c) the real-life results are likely to continue because the system vendor has a stable ideology and you understand and agree with it.
My largest personal losses only occured when I scaled at 100% or 50% of a system when I should really have scaled at 5% or 10% for a full month of use FIRST. In essence that is greed and impatience, and therefore I deserve to lose since I took on an inordinate amount of risk on an unknown. So dont DO that, and you will probably over time find some good systems. I know I have.
My stock system has a bunch of subscribers who signed up for more than 4 months. The longest one is 7 months. My option system has subscribers who signed up for more than 4 months. FYI only. I personally traded all my systems, especially Dave’s Goofiz Future terminator. The difference is the position size.
good point Walter, small, small, don’t be greedy, small wins compounded add up to great things. Your account must live to trade another day or your done.
forgot to add I am 3 months with one and looking at a couple of others and am happy. I don’t take every trade and manage them with my own style. I am mainly looking for someone smarter than me to give the direction and I am able to manage it from there sometimes making an additional trade or two within that trade.
Dave:
>My stock system has a bunch of subscribers who signed up for more than 4 months. The longest one is 7 months.
Well, just as a healthy scepticism, how come that all those bunch of subscribers left only 1 review and even that is a neutral one??? (3 stars) You should have 4-5 very positive reviews, IMHO…
If I were a vendor with a bunch of subscribers for MONTHS, I would ask them to write honest reviews if they are statisfied with the system. And since they keep renewing their subscriptions, they must be statisfied, I must assume. Or… there are no bunch of subscribers…
I never asked subscribers to write review. I am a trader, not a sales man. I never advertise my systems anywhere else. I never advertised on C2 too. This is just my personality. I don’t like to be a sales man. What I am saying here is true. You can ask Matthew to verify what I said. I don’t care much about the subscription. I care more about the trading.
Well, I give you one more hint. Use your common sense to help you understand something. My Dave’s Goofiz AMT is on the most populare systems for most of the time. Who will more likely to check the system out? I bet subscribers might want to check it out every day.
Peter
"Well, just as a healthy scepticism, how come that all those bunch of subscribers left only 1 review and even that is a neutral one??? (3 stars)'
Maybe considering that this thread started a few hours ago that’s also got to do with the fact, that not everybody is glued to his screen for the entire trading session, and not everybody is so bored that they have to read a message board every 5 minutes.
There are people who only trade EOD, I prefer to be one of them.
Peter
Refund losses back in person???
Where do I sign!
Dear Pete,
The aim of my response was not to ‘derail’ the thread. Potential subscribers want to sign up according to the experience of other subscribers. Not all subscribers write reviews (as Dave testifies) so systems with good subscriber experiences may not get the exposure they deserve. You have only been trading C2 months so you believe you don’t qualify to review a system but that depends on the system you are trading; for a day-trade system you would be more than qualified to review it. I would encourage you to review your system, early opinions matter.
Is mise le meas,
Declan
Kent,
You are the ideal subscriber, which I bet every system vendor would love to have.
Just one bit of advise: look for systems with trading speed (Average trade length) in weeks/trade rather than in days/trade or daytrade (rapid) because the average win/trade, W:L ratio (profit factor) and expectancy for these systems are higher than most other systems with surprisingly similar drawdowns resulting in lower commissions/slippage and tax consequences.
What losses ?
Peter:
>Maybe considering that this thread started a few hours ago …
I think your point is missdirected. The review feature has been with us for 7 weeks or longer, so if Dave has happy costumers (I wish him plenty) they had enough time to post a few positive reviews. Even if they post EOW (end-of-week).
For Dave: Even a good product needs advertisement, just ask Matt! So if you are here to get subscribers and not just to build your ego, as Marketing 101 I would advise you to ask your subscribers to write some reviews. It couldn’t hurt, if your system is good. And by good I don’t mean just profitable, but that it actually makes money FOR THE SUBSCRIBERS…
Gordon:
The problems you describe (fill issues, slippages, platform stability, unrobust system) are not necessarily caused by C2. With any system there is a good chance that these things will happen. Did you learn anything from the Systems you subscribed to?
I subscribed to various C2 systems for almost a year and made some money. I also learned quite a bit from experienced traders so that I can now have my own system on C2. I think the learning experience on C2 was more valuable than a master’s degree since I actually practiced what I was learning. Real life experience.
My suggestion would be to find a system that fits your style and not expect a perfect world. Trading is not perfect!
Dexter
Hi,
I notice that only 3 real subscribers replied to the survey. Two are flat and slightly down after commish/cost, and one is up and happy.
After following this forum for about 4 months, I can hardly find any familiar subscriber names that were frequenty visitor to the forum a few months ago. I think they either 1) have all their questions answered, 2) are making money quietly, or 3) lost money and left.
I noticed that C2 has been around for over 2 years. If it is for the long term, there should be a big community of old timers who can reply to this survey by the truck load.
Any old timers out there? Anyone got past 6 months???
Thanks all!
Gordon
