I’d like the ability to hide limit and stop orders from subscribers until the price is touched. Once the price is touched, a hidden stop order would be signalled (and submitted to the exchange for autotrading) as a market order. Once the price is touched, a hidden limit order would be signalled (and submitted to the exchange for autotrading) either as a limit order or as a market order, depending on what is selected during order submission.
The reasoning behind this is it’s possible for someone to become a subscriber, not actually trade the system, and use the knowledge of system stops/limits to run them and soak profits from other system subscribers. I’d like to be able to trust everyone, but the open nature of C2 means noone must have advance knowledge of orders.
Any chance we can get this?
Thanks,
Sam
A lot of vendors, myself included, just hold the orders ourselves, and send them as market orders. Mine are send automatically via the Tradestation interface. That seems to work pretty well.
Another alternative is to trade something with more volume, perhaps ES.
But given the popularity of C2, and the number of subscribers you are likely to get, all in relation to the daily volume of EMD, I’d be really surprised if someone would actually try to run your stops. Pork Bellies, Orange Juice, Palladium - maybe, but not the Mid Cap 400 futures.
Kevin
In other words, you want to prohibit manual trading? Also, what leads you to believe that institutional traders are staking out C2’s comparatively tiny systems in order to run their stops?
Holding the order myself requires me to intervene at exactly the right moment. I trade 100% mechanical systems and do not want to introduce human error. Having the order held on C2’s systems also eliminates any potential problems that might be attributed to my computer hardware, network connection, etc.
I’d rather not speculate on when/why someone might try to run my stops. If there’s a way to eliminate the possibility entirely, then it’s my fiduciary responsibility to do so.
Thanks,
Sam
I’m sure Matthew will weigh in, and tell you what is feasible for his programmers to do. I just wanted to throw out some alternatives, in case your request can’t/won’t be done.
Kevin
Your suggestions are noted and appreciated. I’m holding out hope for the original request, however. I believe it would be best for my subscribers.
Thanks again,
Sam
As a subscriber, I can tell you that I much rather have the stop/limit orders visible, preferably sent attached to the opening order. For peace of mind; to eliminate any slippage there could be until C2 realizes the price has been touched, sends the market order to the broker and it is executed; and avoid any possible datafeed/hardware/network/etc failures at C2. This is doubled if the orders are held by the vendor.
"I’d like the ability to hide limit and stop orders from subscribers until the price is touched. Once the price is touched, a hidden stop order would be signalled…"
that kind of request would put such a vendor at the bottom of my list.
Second, you will find shortly that it is highly unlikely you have anything to offer that is going to interest anyone who would run your orders (as someone said above about C2’s tiny systems)…
It seems 100% of the new vendors think they are going to be among the < 1% who actually ever have a system of any value.
I realize you’d rather have the stops visible, but that basically makes them publicly visible. I wouldn’t ever recommend the trading of any real size while making your stops visible to the general public. So that gives two options: 1) I hold all stops locally and wait to submit as market orders when the price is touched, or 2) we get the feature I requested that stores it on C2’s server. Based on your post, I think you’d agree that #2 is better than #1.
Thanks,
Sam
I understand the reasons for wanting to hide them, but as it stands, the disadvantages (slippage, uncertainty, possibility of failures, even if held at C2) outweigh the advantages, especially given the relatively negligible volume generated by a single C2 system.
The volume generated by this single C2 system is expected to grow. If it doesn’t, then there is ultimately no point in offering the system on C2 in the first place. Also, I trade this system and offer it privately as well. I cannot share my stops with the world.
Thanks,
Sam
Samuel,
Publishing your stops will help a lot to your subscribers. Major advantage for the publishing is you will remove two layers of possible errors. First layer is you. Second layer is C2. So you leave simple chain subscriber->broker->exchange. One additional point for consideration is that stops aren’t native orders on most of exchanges and implementation of stop order is highly depends from a broker. Most of brokers use implementation that you propose for C2. Hold hidden order and put it to exchange when price level reached. If we add C2 to the chain slippage will increase, because we have double hold-double trigger of stop order.
I cannot share my stops with the world.
You don’t share your stops with the world you share it with people who pays to you for the information. It’s very different.
Eu
P.S. I wouldn’t speculate on theme of running stops by C2’s signals. (smile)
You don’t share your stops with the world you share it with people who pays to you for the information. It’s very different.
There is the possibility that someone might subscribe to the system for this information, without actually trading the system signals. That is what I want to avoid. As I am not managing the accounts of my subscribers, there is no way to ensure this isn’t happening without hiding the stops.
Thanks,
Sam
There is the possibility that someone might subscribe to the system for this information, without actually trading the system signals.
I had the situation. One of my subscribers double profit by trading my signals in his own way. As I understand he used my signals for defining levels and stocks for his intraday trading. So what? He paid for the signals.
there is no way to ensure this isn’t happening without hiding the stops.
Front running/running stops requires liquidity at predictable levels. And it’s double sided sword for “evil” person who wants to use it at C2, because total amount of trading capital in the game at stop levels is unknown by few reasons.
Eu
