Improved transparency for potential subscribers

There have been instances of sharp losses in systems where developers have elected to hide trades from public view for long periods of time, and the charts are not clear in showing the most recent losses.

I have two suggestions to help improve transparency for potential subscribers.

  1. Add space to the right edge of charts. At present a sharp and recent loss for a system can be difficult to discern because the most recent changes are jammed up against the chart’s right border.
  2. Limit the amount of time a developer can hide trades from public display.
2 Likes

I couldn’t agree with you more. It seems like all that most of these “top” developers really care about is to lure in new and unsuspecting subscribers based on their past/overall positive performance while hiding their most recent negative performances for days. For example, you have one “top” system developer currently at a run of 25%-plus loss (from last week) who is now trying to hide his most recent performance and stats from the public view for a whole week (168 hours). Still not sure what he is trying to hide (besides the obvious of trying to sucker in money from new unsuspecting subscribers because we can still see his current bad performance under Statistics (e.g. “Open P/L”, “Closed P/L” etc.) and also see the huge drop in his overall performance on a daily and intra-day basis.

I believe the chart and hypothetical monthly returns are updated “real time.” Or with the 20 min delay… just the trade info under the “trading record” can be delayed for X amount of hours/days. I believe this is the case.

That’s how i noticed that Simple Vix and Volatility were having big drawdowns.

Scott, you are definitely correct on both fronts. The issue is that on the chart you have to scroll or put your mouse all the way to the right edge of the chart in the right position to see an “updated” changes in the performance numbers. Visually, it is just not the best, that’s all. The hypothetical monthly returns are correct and updated (minus the 20 or so minutes delay) but again you have to know where those figures were the previous days, weeks, months etc. to get a clear and accurate picture of the most recent performance of a system, which is where the chart is there to help but again the chart is not very visually pleasing or easy to see as much of help until after a few days after the fact.

Agree with Scott the equity chart can’t hide hidden drawdown even if trades are delayed ,and not sure why they still use this, other than to avoid copying which after 24 hours would be pretty useless anyway. The thing which still irritates me ( and I am sure many others) is ‘hiding’ multi-leg trades, requiring you to ‘show auto trade data’ and even download the csv data which, although a very useful resource, hides very risky systems; …one option system trade had 10+ legs for one trade…

That’s an interesting point… hiding current multi-leg trades could be a way to trick people in… except that the user could check the entire previous trading record for multi-leg trades… and simply never ever invest in a system that uses them. Right? A system that is 6 months, 18 months or 6 years old has a completely transparent record. As far as I know…

If users can’t discern multi-leg trades from the published record, that would be a huge problem.

Two more points… I’ve tracked that daily graph, and it is at best a one day delayed measurement. If I have a big day, and my system is up 3.5% for example, the previous day never reflects that, nor does the next day. However I will have a nice surge in the next days graph, and the current day will move up a slight amount. I haven’t been able to figure out what C2 is really doing there… but the graph IMO is good though loose measurement of a system, not an exact measurement.

One more thing… there can be legit reasons for hiding trades for 168 hours because, in my case, the trades last for weeks or more (I never add to a loosing position). It was too easy for people to do a free subscription, leave then wait until they see when the shares get sold. A bigger problem was people just resubscribing for the free trial, but that’s gotten harder to do. I know it always looks suspicious, but there are legit reasons (in some cases) for doing it.

I will say it is indeed the individual responsibility of each potential subscriber to a system to do their own due diligence. In addition to some developers trying to “hide” their most recent bad performance, you can also see now what some developers say in the system’s description about “automated” trades (and providing built-in stop losses) is really not the case.

For example, one particular system (among a few others) states that the system is all “automated” with built in stop losses at various points, but apparently that was not true as this recent downturn shows that somehow the “machine” completely ignored those supposedly “automated” built-in stop losses and the system making losses exponentially much bigger than what the system’s description states. Hmmm…buyer be ware.

Rob, you make a good point about hiding a system’s trades for a few hours or a couple of days. There is obvious legitimacy to that if you don’t want folks “free loading” off your trades and not paying for it. The case I mentioned though is for a system that “day trades” particularly every day and doesn’t hold any open positions over night, so I don’t see a legitimate reason for “hiding” about 7-10 consecutive CLOSED trades from public view for a WHOLE WEEK.

I suspect the graph is delayed for the same reasons trade history is delayed…to help prevent freeloading against systems that trade only a couple or so instruments.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that if a developer suddenly elects to hide trades for “X” days, C2 will hide trades that have already filled and already been posted, moving back in time on the trading list. In other words, providing a time machine and a cloaking device for recent poor performance. Am I wrong here, or is that what’s happening?

Yes, you are absolutely correct…and it will make it seems like that the system has not traded for days, with the bad results only buried in the Statistics section (that is if one cares to go there and look). Even though the graph is “updated” and reflective of the system’s overall performance, the most recent (and often negative) performance is “shielded” from the eyes of a new potential subscriber who only sees the overall (and likely great) performance when in fact the system’s most recent performance (which is “hidden” for days from the “Trade Record”) might not be so great. A system could have traded a whole week with big losses that is not yet revealed in the “Trade Record” and all a potential subscriber to the system sees is “Last Trade: 7 Days Ago,” as an example.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I think that is a real issue that needs to be addressed by C2. Hiding trades for a certain period moving forward is one thing…but having the ability to essentially pull a cover over trades that have already been filled and displayed is another.

I suggest a solution to this problem:
add a list of latest 5 day’s system’s daily win/loss.
It looks like this:
9/16/2016: 30% loss
9/15/2016:2% win
9/14/2016:1% win
9/13/2016:1.5% loss
9/12/2016:0.5% loss

If you look very carefully, you will find one “leading strategy” and popular system (among others as such) currently that is a perfect example of this. A current loss run (CLOSED) of 25% (based on it’s start up capital) for the last 7 days…but yet NONE of the those individual trades are YET revealed in the Trade Record and says “Last Trade: 7 Days Ago.” Hmm…buyer be ware.

Specific closed trades can only be hidden for 7 days, max. I’ve already explained why we allow this: it is because some systems are always in the market, long or short, and so revealing the closed position instantly will “give away” the proprietary information to non-subscribers.

Open trades can be hidden for as long as they remain open.

However

The equity chart, and all stats, are all marked-to-market with up-to-date data. So, although the exact nature of what the open trade consists of may be hidden, the performance of that open trade is not hidden. If a strategy has a large open position, which is losing money, that loss is included in the monthly returns stats, on the equity chart, in all the stats, etc., and is perfectly visible to non-subscribers.

Finally, some common sense: If a customer subscribes to a strategy, and suddenly sees an open position that is surprising to him – so surprising that he wishes he didn’t subscribe! – he can just email C2 and ask for a refund and turn off his subscription.

Matthew

3 Likes

Hi Lindq,

All you have to do is use the slider below the main graph and slide it as far to the right as you want then you can see the detailed graph for the recent months, weeks or even days.

Matthew, that’s really a generous gesture and offer from you guys (the immediate “unsubscribe” and refund). I just hope folks don’t “abuse” it (as can be done with all things that are “good”).

How do you know that trade is closed and the developer is hiding it by changing the delay?

Isn’t it obvious? Or I guess folks don’t know how to do their due diligence on C2. You can see “Closed PL” under the Statistics section of any system. Also, the developer all of sudden delayed the system for “168 hours” last Friday (the 9th) right after he took a big loss (which it could be seen by a big drop in his overall performance numbers and the “CLOSED PL” in the Statistics section). Before that (last Friday’s loss) the developer had not delayed any of his “closed trades” for even a second, so obviously not a coincidence that the “168 hours” (1 WHOLE WEEK) delay appeared right after that big loss. The 168 hours delay (of that initial loss) have since passed (after market close today) and now that loss appears… but the subsequent losses since then from Monday of this week until today are still “delayed”. This past Monday’s results (good or bad) will appear on the “Trade Record” this upcoming Monday and so forth.

VixTrader, by the way, I am NOT talking about your system. As I stated, this is a system that “DAY TRADES” and “closes out” open positions and not hold anything overnight, which obviously doesn’t apply to you. I have given enough info that this is and should be more than obvious to anyone paying attention, but I guess not, so I leave folks to do their own due diligence instead of thinking I am talking about them. Everything I have stated about the system is there for anyone to look for it here on C2 and it is nothing hard or special about being able to do so and find it.