I agree. C2 should remove the free trial IMHO.
Because system developers pay money to keep the systems here, they auto select themselves, and the quality of the signals here should be much better than on a place where everyone post signals for free, so even if one would trade free systems s/he still has a better chance than anywhere else to make a profit.
C2 should remove free trial, and probably should use a discounted value for a certain period. (like X% off the first N days)
I don’t see the point of the free trial. C2 is publishing the full log of trades. Free period is abused, and should be removed, IMHO.
I agree. C2 should remove the free trial IMHO.
Because system developers pay money to keep the systems here, they auto select themselves, and the quality of the signals here should be much better than on a place where everyone post signals for free, so even if one would trade free systems s/he still has a better chance than anywhere else to make a profit.
C2 should remove free trial, and probably should use a discounted value for a certain period. (like X% off the first N days)
I don’t see the point of the free trial. C2 is publishing the full log of trades. Free period is abused, and should be removed, IMHO.
I didn’t see any problem with C2. You can decide if you give free trial or not. Why do you blame C2?
Edison:
I respectfully disagree with you. Of course you are perfectly welcome not to offer a free trial period for your own trading system. That is an option any system creator here on C2 can either use or not use. But it is very puzzling to me how you so vocally state that C2 should remove that option for all system developers, no matter what.
Many – in fact, let me come right out and say it – almost all system developers who offer free trial periods benefit from it. Indeed C2 strongly encourages system developers to make free trial periods available for their systems. You’ll get much better exposure on the site if you do, incidentally.
Why does C2 recommend and encourage it? Because of course C2 makes money when you, the system developer, make money; and because we are intimately familiar with the statistics on subscription revenues, conversion rates, and successful systems. Guess what? The most successful systems offer free trials. The systems that make the most money for their creators offer trial periods. So that’s why it puzzles me that you say we should remove this option from C2 entirely.
I always tell system developers who get upset when people unsubscribe from their free trial period, “Relax. You’re not running online jewelry store bluenile.com. You’re not selling diamonds through the mail.” Your marginal cost of offering a free trial is… well, it’s zero. Okay… perhaps your point is right, that it costs some of your time to answer questions from your free-trial customers. Fine. Then the marginal cost of providing a free trial is not quite zero. But it’s darn close.
Further, we simply do not have a problem of people maliciously subscribing to free trials again and again without paying. First of all, C2 has an automated method of preventing this in most cases. Second, the number of cases where our automated filter doesn’t prevent this is quite small: maybe one or two people each year (for the whole site!). So that’s not a legitimate concern at this point.
The reality is this. For most systems, people who are being asked to lay real money on the table want to know as much about your system as possible. They want to see how you manage open trades. How you communicate. How your system works. Some even want to autotrade it in a live or demo brokerage account for a little while, and make sure it “feels right” to them before they commit significant capital to it.
Of course, if you have a very unusual system, as you claim to (I guess yours is one with an unusually long time-frame, and thus brief trial periods aren’t useful) then by all means, choose not to use the trial period that C2 allows. (But I would suggest even so that you consider offering a super-long trial period if that’s the case; I think you’ll do better ultimately, even if some percentage of people unsubscribe before the end of the period).
In closing, I find it just plain strange, and to be more blunt, factually wrong of you to pontificate that system vendors should not offer free trials, and that C2 should remove those trials completely. That’s incorrect and silly.
System vendors do better financially when they offer free trial periods to customers. That’s the simple fact that everyone should keep in mind.
Knowing that fact, go ahead and use your own judgment about how you want to market your own system on C2.
Matthew
I have actually seen a lot of value of the free trial before subscribing to a system. As a subscriber, it gives me a sense of what to expect in the system and whether it would work for me. It gives me a feel of how many signals the system generates every day and when it generates these signals. I get a feel on whether I can use these signals to manually execute on them
Also, in the free trial I would like to see at least 3-5 signals/trades go through
I am willing to offer fee trial. Everybody are welcome to try!
Q: what would happen if system developers would get similar treatment like subscribers? Well, then system developers will abuse C2 by creating 100 free systems, out of which they will hope one or two will be extremely good, and they will continue with them.
There is a similar problem with free subscribing just because there is a quality bar for systems on C2 - we actually pay to post results here, and this makes all things different. It opens the door for abuse and time wasting for developers, because one can use the collective intelligence of the systems to make money - and this should work since we pay a fee to be here.
It might be that abuse is small. Agree. But I could not know that, but I will take your world for that.
I understand why C2 wants to offer free subscribing options. While it could be a hassle, it does attract clients, and those clients will make create buzz and at worst they might pay some fees (though autotrade) even if they trade only free systems.
Subscribers can know everything they want though the log. Well, C2 does not offer a great log for transactions (just the trades, but not the exact order I personally introduced + my entries are most of the time a few minutes delayed than what I specified, but again that is not my fault. C2 could improve in these areas).
But if C2 would offer the exact log of a system, there would be no real need for free subscription.
It is also unfair to unsubscribe at the end of the free period.
Fair would be like that (my 2 cents): pay only if profitable in the first N days. If the person unsubscribes, and the system did not performed, he should not pay nothing. But if the system was profitable s/he should pay. Let subscribers unsubscribe before those N days, but they should still pay if the system worked well during the subscription period.
Why not giving a free option: it is because there is enough rope for both system developers and subscribers to hang themselves. It just makes some subscribers jump boats at every single small dip.
That is why as a system developer I will not offer the system for free, but of course anyone can take the extra rope if they wish so.
I have no hopes to make money on C2. I make money (so far) on my real account. I need C2 for logging purposes (so far) and maybe in a few years I will have some decent subscribers, if everything woks fine and I still have the energy to keep C2 updated.
I have been a subscriber of multiple C2 systems for over a year now and Iâve seen the best and worst of C2. My best subscriptions are to those systems that have a proven track record of 12-18 months (or more) and where the system provider delivers regular communication to subscribers through email, this forum, or a regularly updated web site. It also helps to build my confidence in a system when a provider includes a clear description of their personal background and trading experience and a detailed description of their system strategy.
Typically, the worst systems I have subscribed to on C2 have been those with a short term track record (6-9 months or less but sometimes longer) and those that did not include information on the providerâs background and trading strategy. The most volatile systems (mainly futures systems but not always) will often show outstanding results for several months and then all of a sudden implode into oblivion. Usually those systems with the most amazing consecutive monthly results are the fastest to blow up. I could be wrong but I do suspect that a large number of the new automated futures systems are developed by programmers who test their trading logic and algorithms on historical data but fail to account for changing market conditions and do not include an adequate stop-loss plan. Here is a quote from a system description I reviewed today âThe algorithm does NOT use limit or stop loss orders. It is up to your to protect against major losses! WE WON’T!â. Geez, would you be comfortable allocating your funds to this system?
The best advice I can give to new C2 member subscribers is to stay away from the brand new systems until they⦠show a consistent track record, explain the details of their strategy, and regularly communicate with subscribers. Also, stay away from systems that do not provide a free evaluation period. I have found that it can take a little time to find out if a system meets your trading style (trade frequency, risk tolerance, etc.) and if the system works properly with your broker. For example, does your broker have inventory available for systems that include short trades and will you be able to successfully use Gen1 and Gen3 autotrading? Sometimes you canât tell how well a system works until you monitor the trades for a week or two. My personal belief is that system providers that moan about free trials are probably more concerned about how quickly they can collect subscriber income than they are in proving successful long term results for the benefit of their subscribers.
I believe it’s probably right that a free trial is better for all concerned. My systems are based on a long term outlook so I used to offer a three month free trial. Even that is not really enough for two of my three systems - I want to attract subs with a similar long term outlook who are better suited than those who measure results by the month.
I got a lot of people signing up and then jumping off before any long term benefit was apparent.
So as a compromise I decided to offer a shorter trial period but with a half-price coupon for the first six months. This hopefully encourages selection of more serious subs more suited to the systems while also not leaving me entirely out of pocket.
I don’t know if this was the right thing to do; I’m just mentioning it as another option.
Dean.
I agree that the subscriber is best served with a trial period. It allows him/her to see the frequency of orders, how often they are updated or canceled, whether his/her broker is equipped to deal with the symbols, etc.
These things can’t be seen from the closed trade track record.
But I have decided not to provide a trial on any of my systems (even though I provide a full month on my website), because C2 allows a trial subscriber to do a review of the system. This allows an unscrupulous person to trial subscribe to a system for the sole intent of providing a derogatory review. Moreover, C2 allows that subscriber to update that review (the new review takes the place of the old review) whenever they wish.
For those who think C2 should not allow trial periods, I would say the developer has that option. For those who would like a trial where none exists, I would say ask the developer. Maybe his reason for not providing one is similiar to my own and he can provide one in another manner.
"… clear description of their personal background and trading experience and a detailed description of their system strategy…"
1. have you asked C2 to add a profile page for the system developers (sometime multiple not only one)?
2. clear description of the system strategy could backfire and can expose you to reverse engineering
3. When I got wrote too many details ans stats about the system, C2 owners did not allowed in the text promises and asked to make sure all assumption are accompanied by, basically, a "hey, this is a back test and it is just historical performance which do not guaranty future" along with a "subscribers should basically make their mind based on the actual history on C2".
"…but fail to account for changing market conditions and do not include an adequate stop-loss plan."
In the long run, any stop loss will hurt the my system. I am trading personally the system, and I can take a significant hit. If you are not in for the long term and cannot sustain DD, you should not trade my system. I am not trading penny stocks, nor exotic stuff, nor I will keep anything overnight if I have subscribers. Just stocks from S&P500.
And there is an adequate stop-loss plan: whatever the subscriber fells it is good for his risk profile.
+1
C2, please disclose stats about subscriber discipline:
- how many free trials a subscriber has vs. pays systems
- the percentage of systems he joined after a successful free trials
- how many times he left a system after first DD.
I prefer disciplined subscribers who are in for the long run.
Free trials are gifts from Santa Clause. Some reject the gift, but it doesn’t matter because no creator is motivated by a desire to serve his brothers, for his brothers rejected the gift. His truth was his only motive. His own truth, and his own work to achieve it in his own way. A symphony, a book, an engine, a philosophy, an airplane or a building–that was his goal and his life. Not those who heard, read, operated, believed, flew or inhabited the thing he had created.
Instead of free trial C2 should start chain business kind thing.
Like I offer for my susetm USD 45 & 45 USD.
I offer free access to the subscribers who bring their friends to my system.
Also referred friends can get free access to the system if they bring 2 friends and so on…
This will increase C2 demand automatically.
<quote source=“Matthew”>I always tell system developers who get upset when people unsubscribe from their free trial period, “Relax. You’re not running online jewelry store http://bluenile.com. You’re not selling diamonds through the mail.” Your marginal cost of offering a free trial is… well, it’s zero. Okay… perhaps your point is right, that it costs some of your time to answer questions from your free-trial customers. Fine. Then the marginal cost of providing a free trial is not quite zero. But it’s darn close.</quote>
Speechless!
