The opinions expressed in these forums do not represent those of C2, and any discussion of profit/loss
is not indicative of future performance or success.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading. You should therefore carefully consider
whether such trading is suitable for you in light of your financial condition. You should read,
understand, and consider the Risk Disclosure Statement that is provided by your broker
before you consider trading. Most people who trade lose money.
Received this message from the manager of Simplicity Trading:
Hello, We just wanted to make you aware that our subscription levels will be changing at the end of this week to bring into line with other strategies and to reflect the relative performance and account size. The monthly subscription will be increasing from $100 to $199 for Simplicity Trading (the subscription for Simplicity Trading Lite will remain at $100 reflecting the reduced account size and hence trading scope that this strategy is constrained by). We feel that these levels reflect the historic and ongoing effort involved in design, development and management of the system and are not unreasonable when related to account size and target returns. We will continue to review these as we progress and would like to thank you for what we hope continues to be a mutually beneficial relationship. Thanks.
Thinking this is a damn short notice of 2 trading days to increase the fee with 100% for existing and loyal clients, and as an alternative it is suggested that you could use their other trading system, which has a history of less than 2 weeks.
I was wondering, whether I should subscribe to this strategy (respectively the light strategy).
When I heard about this, I thought: nope. It is not only about reliability of the strategy, it is also about the reliability of the provider.
If you want to autotrade this, it means, it costs: 300 USD a month (200 for the strategy + 100 for C2). Something a strategy has to reliably make up for in the first place…
The strategy looks pretty good, but no matter how I run the numbers, C2 along with the strategies do just not work out for me.
I got this message too. Got me thinking. What do we think is a reasonable monthly subscription fee on C2? They vary and not always an apparent link with performance. We know C2 takes 30-50% of the fee plus a monthly charge from the strategy leader and also auto trade fees from the subscriber.
Unfortunately, I don’t use 100 % for this model. I think if the price is $149, it will be more reasonable for current customers and subscriber who use less than 100% such as up to 70% scale. Some people use this model for diversification risk n return. Charge $200 to the new customers n reward your loyal subscribers. Win Win solutions.
While personally, I don’t like all the explanation given, this system appears to be a steal at 200 month. It is the system which has way more importance than the fee. Expect another increase if this performance is maintained, it is worth more than you have been paying, actually anyone subscribed is being paid, how could anyone say this system has cost them a penny. Sure this could all change, but until that time be grateful, and perhaps that time will never come.
Hi i am new bee for C2 . with C2 and this fee of 200 and have scale of 25%…looks like i may break even if positive.
Need to think how to go about. Hope the provider can keep the same cost for few more months where i can increase my scaling to a better %.
I tend to agree with futurmajic. Looking at their current staking and actual returns, anyone scaling at even 33% to keep around their minimum account size requirement would still (based on their forecast) be looking at $2500 return per month return which makes the $200 fee seem reasonable value (scaling at greater than 33% doesn’t increase the fee after all)? Whether they can keep it up is another question all together! I think one of the problems is that the cost of delivering strategies (30% of fees) and the cost of investing in strategies is pretty high on C2.
First and foremost, I’m a new subscriber to the system as of July. It was a shock to me to see the fee increase by 100%. I think it is excessive and contemplating whether to stick with the strategy. So let’s go by the numbers for this strategy’s last trade for EXU7 DJ EURO STOXX 50 on August 1st and closed out on August 4th.
66 total followers traded with the strategy.
39 trade at less than 100%
18 trade at 100%
1 trade at 125%
2 trade at 150%
1 trade at 175%
3 trade at 300%
2 trade at 500%
To support another poster’s claim, we can see that almost 60% of the subscribers trade less than 100%. What do y’all think?
I am sure we have discussed all this at length before, but this premium pricing does unfairly penalize the small investor; and baring in mind that no one in their right mind should invest any meaningful amount in a system less than year old ( or even older in some cases!) this is , along with other systems, a super premium price. What do you get for this premium pricing.? Well when compared to other sites the longer term profitable system numbers are no better ie the few that survive a few years.The trade transactions are pretty reliable now, but they are with other providers these days, so you takes your choice. The other issue I have is when the systems inevitably go into drawdown, you have an exaggerated affect with these higher premiums…
These numbers were pulled from the Auto traded data for the trade. The pic is a partial list of trades referenced here. Keep in mind there may be many more subscribers that don’t auto trade.
Additionally, I would like to state that I don’t advocate percentage fee based on auto trading percentages. That would be ridiculous.
MarketJedi,
Your assumptions aren’t entirely accurate. It’s my understanding C2 lists the different fills, though not by subscriber. In your screenshot, all of those fills could be by One whale subscriber, up to 500% scaling. If the whale subscribed prior to c2’s 500% max scaling rule, they can even be larger than 500%. It’s impossible to tell from the data c2 provides us how many subscribers. All the data tells us is the total number shares/contracts auto-traded.
Why does the scaling matter? I go back to my previous point. If you are scaling at 33% to meet his minimum account size requirement then the $100 or $199 is still a small % of the returns seen. And if you are scaling at 66% or 100% etc then the returns make that $100/$199 seem negligible. I agree that the way C2 works doesn’t seem to really align itself to differently sized accounts as a result. If this was any other similar investment product it would more likely be based on a % of account, but C2 doesn’t work like that. As someone who has looked at whether to put my own system up on C2 this is a big negative for me i.e. how do I get a fair price from each individual to reflect the benefit they get from it. I wouldn’t want to charge an investor with a $10k account the same as one with a $200k account because the latter would potentially profit (or lose ) far more and I either price the small investor out of the system or I “give away” the system to the larger investor. This is the big problem with C2 for me - but not sure what other option I have
Froswick,
Unfortunately you do not have that many other options. As far as I know the only competitor (for exchange traded instruments) was Covestor, but they also drifted away and got more expensive and is now in the ownership of Interactive Brokers.
Collective2 needs a competitor so they will be forced to make some improvements and not rise prices as they did recently.
With regards to simplicity futures, then I am still kinda pissed about the 2 days notice for a 100% fee increase and the pricing in general for a not TOS system, which yet has to prove itself in a bear market, .
You are right about the lack of track record - long term incl. a bear market - not sure I agree with his actions either when all is said and done. I guess investors (those who stay) will be less tolerant of any reduction in performance and he may ultimately (or quickly!) regret the move.
I thought I would reference a great video for all to view. Although Rod explicitly states that they don’t provide actual subscribers, you can get a general number of subscribers from the auto trade data.
Start at 44:45 or heck, just watch the whole video.
) far more and I either price the small investor out of the system or I “give away” the system to the larger investor. This is the big problem with C2 for me - but not sure what other option I have 