Anyone managing over $500k following 8 or more systems, if so, how is it working out?
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I am auto trading about 10 more systems. Just started 2 weeks ago. have small gains so far but not too bad. Not all the systems are in trades all the time, so you donât fully max out the account, I am looking to add 1-3 more systems.
you should check out Fast Nickles or XIV Timer if you are not already in a VIX fund!
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XIV Timer
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I am trading a very large account and have been looking myself for the perfect 6 or so systems since July of last year with some real ups and downs but some were my mistakes. I have kept three since the beginning and that is Zero
T and ES ST IT doing 200% in each with excellent results. I have also had good results with Simple Vix Trade by Vixtrader doing 100%. Drawdowns can be intense but over all it does produce good results. Still looking and testing to find the other 3-4 systems. My advice is to use the simulator or the first 60 days or so for each new strategy so you can see firsthand how the trades good. I have learned the hard way it is one thing to review past trades on paper, in Excel, and spreadsheets but a whole another world to see and do it with real money. This would have saved me a lots of money in the beginning. I would love to hear everyoneâs thoughts on strategies they have used for at least 4-6 months or more and have had good results. Maybe we can help each other out. I am currently reviewing the two strategies suggested by CJZaruba. Thank you for sharing those two.
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In part I wish that C2 would allow like-minded subscribers to follow individuals such as yourself so we can see exactly the systems you are following, in part, help find investors with similar sized capital amounts and see how you allocating/scaling to each strategy. I fully advocate you need to follow at least 4-6 systems especially if you are trading >100,000 in the account. But, it would be nice to have âstrategyâ leaders on the subscriber endâmeaning. Seems Collective2 want to encourage you to make your own affiliated & private sites, and bring in $$ that way. Just wish there was a way Collective2 would allow us to share expertise as subscribers and you could follow a subscriber strategistâbased on capital amount. It is hard enough to find a strategy that works, but then very important to blend that with other systems to be most successful.
To answer your question, I have been monitoring and trading SNIPER very closely: finally maybe someone with some serious professionalism that knows what they are doing and truly knows how to trade. I see you are trading the Quan-timer strategies: and they have information on backtesting and provide a lot of information on their websiteâI also trade all of their strategies-using them together drawdowns are limited, so far. I would also suggest you checking out EventHunter/Copper PEA, Conservprofit (forex).
Mark this one on your watchlist
robertfisherânoticed you already deleted/cleared those other strategies that showed similar equity/option trades but with huge, huge losing systems, where did the others go that were on your profile just a few hours ago? Care to explain what you are trying to do with âflying turtleâ lol?? Just having funâclassic, trade and make 4-6 different strategies get a few lucky trades and then hope a bunch of followers get on board and follow to make some cash until the whole damn thing blows up and poor subscribers get everything handed to them.
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LOL. donât want to waste my time on you. No need to explain to you neither.
If you eager to follow my strategy, I will offer you 5$ off.
Matt, can you get the monkey off my back? Thanks
Hereâs what Iâm doing, Iâv created a Fund of funds, Iâm auto trading over 12 systems in a large account. I figure better to have 12 managers with proven track records manage my money.
Iâv chosen pretty much all the best systems on C2, with the smallest draw down. Now itâs all about scaling the right ratio, and shutting down systems that start to do bad.
We have been trading over 10 systems for over 5 months, and learned a lot. Some cautions:
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Some systems are Martingale, or part Martingale, and have a high risk of blowing up due to the additional excess leverage chasing a losing trade. The managers of these systems have a record of developing âlots of systemsâ. Some disappear and show back up as a different name. You need to look at trades in detail, and download the spreadsheet with the drawdown per trade. Avoid these systems and managers
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Some systems have HUGE leveraged risk. The managers donât trade their own money, so they are trying to âget luckyâ and get some followers. Avoid any with poor ârisk of ruinâ statistics. (Although some managers figure this out and adjust their risk controls)
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Some are highly correlated to the market, and to each other. Avoid these, as they are likely just lucky, and go up and down together (so you get no advantage of diversity)
With this said, there are some good and interesting managers on the site. We have a Fund-of-Funds approach, and are allocating based on uncorrelated drawdown risk. You can see the systems we are following if you click on my name and look at the links.
We are happy to collaborate with any/all, who have something of value to contribute.
You can message me, or e-mail me at lesgray@morganllc.com
Good luck
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You can find me as the manager of the âVIX Club âŚâ strategies - look up alphabetically on the Grid. We are just starting to trade our models here on C2. (We are an Investment Club, focused on trading volatility. Our model âcompetesâ for an allocation with the other systems on C2. Our control metrics are return/drawdown and Sharpe, with Rtn/DD the most highly weighted.
Hello Leslie,
I am just curious about what you wrote. Are you experiencing and expressing âbuyerâs remorseâ or still following and endorsing these same systems that you have stated are âMartingaleâ and getting âluckyâ? I am guessing maybe your 30-day subscription on some of these systems have not ended yet?
I find it interesting that you are still subscribing to some of these same systems (the majority on your current âstrategy followingâ list) that obviously folks should be quite weary of joining as well.
IMO it appears the C2 crowd here are just drawn to and want to simply chase these âhigh flyingâ systems regardless of their associated risk/DD until they are actually subscribed to the systems and realize the emotional and financial toll that following these systems require. From what I see, the systems that you are currently following are the same âusual suspectsâ on the C2 food chain based on the C2 scores, which is not necessarily the best way to gauge the best risk-adjusted systems on here. For example, I see a system on your list that has lost about 30% in the last 30 days (which is now just living of its âpast gloryâ to sucker in more subscribers despite its deplorable performance for the last 6 months or so).
Of the ones on my list, 2 are still subscribed but I am no longer following. (Avg Exp and Vol Trdr). Avg Exp because it is human based and he appears unstable, and Vol Trader because he has too much risk (His risk of ruin is > 4X the others, and he doesnât listen to advice from his customers). I am watching about 6 others that meet my criteria, and will likely follow soon.
I allocate so that the worst DD from any one system is < 3% of my portfolio (e.g. a system with a true10% DD could get 4x the allocation as a 40% DD). Less for systems that have some correlation to each other. I also make a correction on DD for age of the strategy - e.g. I assume a 6 month strategy DD will need a 2x multiplier to equal a 12 month strategy (about right). With the group, we run a collective worst expected DD of about 5%. Our performance since we started in Sept is quite good, and our actual DD is ~2%.
So if one system has a 30% DD, at 10% of portfolio, this is a 3% hit on performance. If no one else has a similar bad period at the same time (uncorrelated), then the hit is not that great, as the others are generally âupâ enough to cover. Key is diversity and un-correlation.
We look for systems that are algo based, have good back test data, are uncorrelated, have >100 trades, and have reasonable risk control (trading with stop loss and profit targets that donât change). I will relieve these criteria a bit if the trade record shows A+ risk control (e.g. Copper Pea), or if the system trades a different market from VIX (e.g. gold, oil). Points if they trade their own money (Beat it).
Leverage doesnât scare me too much, as long as the risk control is in place. Some have me very nervous (e.g. ConservProfit, Beat It), and some I think are quite good (Mr Money Tree, Copper Pea, Vix day Trader). I have learned to look at every trade, and to make all decisions on risk control (or lack thereof)
On the other hand, some of these systems on C2 are scams using a martingale approach to get subscribers, - (Ascendant, e.g.), and some are just lucky for a while with huge leverage (most of them)
Much of my tolerance for all of this comes because we have an algo model that we use to trade the VIX, that seems to work quite well, so I know all of this is possible, and we are not the only clever people with computers. Our system has the same issues as all of these systems - we suffer ~25% drawdowns about 1x per quarter. However, we also make ~20%/month on the average (which happens mostly in periods of high volatility).
With this all said, I also track a âlarge basketâ of about 30 other systems that didnât make the $ cut. Amazingly, these next 30 do OK as well - not as good returns (only 60%/yr), but not terrible - running a Sharpe of ~4.0, with a worst collective DD of ~12%. The key is keeping the risk from any one low, diversity is good.
Hope this helps.
Leslie M. Gray
617-592-8379
Morgan Group LLC
lesgray@morganllc.com
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Leslie,
Thanks for your thorough response (really I appreciate the candor). I do see some holes in your approach and on some of the systems you follow, but I guess thatâs my own rigid personal preferences and high standards, I guess. You mentioned that systems like Ascendant may be a scam using Martingale etc, but I implore for you to look a bit âclosely,â as some of the other systems you may still be currently subscribing also leans towards the shady side of things (which I have told the managers themselves).
It is great that diversity is a key component for you, so as along as things are working for you and your group, who am I to complain? Hopefully,our paths may cross in the âfutureâ and we can chat a bit more in a more private session (who knows, I may have a system that meets your criteria soon for you to follow). Have a great day.
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How do you handle if/when 2 systems give out contradictory signals? System A goes long when system B is short of the same instrument???
=0 means do nothing?
If 2 systems trade the same thing, one long, one short, cancels each other out
Yeah but eventually they will close just at different times, and you also get stuck with the double commission.
Other than the 2 I mentioned, if you have any reservations about my approach - please give me details, or about a specific system - please share the name. I will take a closer look and give you my analysis.
One of the advantages of this site should be collaboration - any info is welcomed, and confidential. Our collective goal is to make $, and it is not a zero sum game. We can all win here
Thanks
Leslie M. Gray
617-592-8379
Morgan Group LLC
lesgray@morganllc.com
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