C2 does not count correctly the number of transactions

C2
#1

Since I started my strategy in C2, I made more than 50 transactions but C2 counted all of them as 12 transactions. I get quite a few questions about the low number of transactions and I had to try to explain the mistake of C2… this prevented quite a few visitors to register to my strategy. all of them told me that they will wait to see more trades before they register…but I already have more trades!!!

Example: All transactions that appear here were counted by a C2 as single transaction!

12/14/16 10:25 XIV VELOCITYSHARES DAILY INVERSE V LONG 2,322 51.04 1/20/17 12:23 52.65 2.21% $3,597
107935065 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/14/16 10:25 BTO 350 XIV 45.88
107941151 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/14/16 13:49 BTO 344 XIV 46.39
107989725 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/15/16 12:31 STC 173 XIV 45.86
107995613 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/15/16 14:32 BTO 86 XIV 46.39
108044769 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/19/16 9:31 BTO 86 XIV 47.56
108086084 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/20/16 15:31 STC 77 XIV 49.61
108086666 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/20/16 15:52 STC 77 XIV 49.39
108131270 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/22/16 9:35 STC 77 XIV 50.20
108145482 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/22/16 15:58 STC 77 XIV 49.27
108219109 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/28/16 9:38 BTO 200 XIV 50.60
108223598 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/28/16 11:32 BTO 49 XIV 50.13
108226516 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/28/16 13:22 STC 49 XIV 49.16
108226984 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/28/16 13:53 STC 50 XIV 48.93
108227060 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/28/16 13:56 STC 50 XIV 48.95
108246840 See AutoTrade Fills for signal12/29/16 10:55 STC 72 XIV 48.18
108306884 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/3/17 10:36 BTO 68 XIV 49.83
108307309 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/3/17 10:52 BTO 47 XIV 49.78
108311871 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/3/17 13:34 BTO 66 XIV 49.67
108341051 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/4/17 11:45 BTO 60 XIV 51.96
108380538 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/5/17 11:22 STC 66 XIV 52.30
108381519 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/5/17 11:45 STC 137 XIV 51.56
108414397 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/6/17 10:34 BTO 75 XIV 53.79
108421377 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/6/17 13:46 STC 68 XIV 54.09
108422861 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/6/17 14:28 STC 153 XIV 53.95
108444724 1/9/17 9:31 STC 105 XIV 53.41
108448492 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/9/17 9:41 STC 67 XIV 53.26
108545034 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/11/17 14:31 BTO 269 XIV 55.20
108548863 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/11/17 15:36 BTO 115 XIV 55.45
108581742 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/12/17 9:35 BTO 32 XIV 54.48
108606296 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/12/17 15:31 BTO 65 XIV 55.44
108684933 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/17/17 9:30 STC 420 XIV 54.51
108696771 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/17/17 14:43 STC 65 XIV 55.05
108722025 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/18/17 10:34 BTO 346 XIV 56.33
108765470 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/19/17 10:07 STC 285 XIV 55.51
108898354 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/20/17 11:32 BTO 64 XIV 56.55
108900737 See AutoTrade Fills for signal1/20/17 12:23 STC 254 XIV 56.46

I think it is necessary to amend the method used to calculate the trades or display the number of transactions in a different way.

#2

That is how we define a “trade.” It is the sequence of buys and sells between the instants an instrument is flat in your Model Account.

This is different than the number of signals, which is the number of buys and sells. You are welcome to present either number to whomever asks.

#3

FIFO vs LIFO. It would be nice have both accounting models available that can be useful to display with more clarity specific stat. (example % win along to many others)

#4

So just add the number of signals…
It is clear that now this is not a complete picture or even incorrect strategy details …

#5

In collective2 many mistakes …

#6

Robert, I also wondered why you have so many “sub” trades under one trade signal. If new subscribers want to join in but refuse to participate in the current trade, per C2 auto trade set-up, they may need to wait a long time.

#7

This is unrelated to FIFO vs. LIFO. It’s just simply a word definition. We define the word “trade” as a sequence of buys and sells that start when you are flat and end when you are flat.

I don’t think I’m going to be able to change the way I define this term on C2, so one thing you can consider is flattening your position (when appropriate).

3 Likes
#8

I still think that in exchange for the higher amount C2 taking from the Trade Leaders and from the subsribers, providing a complete and not misleading information about the strategies is MUST.

I propose to add at the number of the signals near the number of the “trades”. For me this is necessary and must!

if this info will appear in my strategy then I have no doubt that the amount of registrants was more than double in my strategy …

You said:" …so one thing you can consider is flattening your position (when appropriate)"
This is something that honest algorithmic Trade Leader will NEVER consider if the strategy is not order him to do that. The whole idea in C2 is to bring real signals and not flatting the position to add more trades to your record and by the way to make the subscribers to pay more commissions… isnt it?

I will be happy to see you taking this idea and do it… this is good for C2 as well… much more subscribers to good strategies…

#9

Matthew, I am inclined to agree with Robert on this suggestion. He is not asking you to change C2’s definition of a “trade”.

I believe he is just asking you to add a column next to the “Num Trades” at the top of each system which could be “Num Signals”.

This is very important for strategies that scale in and out of positions. Take my strategy, ETF Timer, for instance. It is beginning its 10th year on C2, is currently at an all-time high, and has a 17% annualized gain over that time period (which time includes the Great Recession of 2008-2009).

There is no other strategy with a track record as long as ETF Timer that has a higher annualized return with a lower maximum drawdown, whether it’s a stock, option, futures, or forex strategy (according to the Grid).

However, if you look at the number of trades for ETF Timer, as defined by C2, it is only 67, because I tend to scale in and out of positions before totally closing them. If you were to include the “Num Signals” stat, that probably would be well over 500 signals.

I have had potential subscribers who were unwilling to subscribe because they felt that the number of trades was too low. But if they saw that the number of signals were a much larger amount, perhaps they would have subscribed.

Also, it should be a simple addition of only a column above every strategy and you should have all of the data available.

By the way, in celebration of ETF Timer’s 10th year on C2, I have cut the monthly price 30% from the normal $97 to only $67 and added a 7 day free trial.

Thanks!
Jim

#10

Although that matter has no influence on my personal strategy because I don´t scale in and out I do agree with adding another column for number of signals. When I once looked at systems like ETF timer I was wondering why there were so few signals but now I know. The truth behind the statistics should be obvious at first glance so that extra info on the strategy page and column in the grid is a must, indeed.

#11

Number of signal roughly define amount of commissions paid to broker.
It might be even worse if you will show huge amount of signals.

#12

It´s not about showing anything in a bad or good light. It´s about giving clients the info they need to get a grasp of strategies at first glance. If some strategies look worse after that addition then so it be. It´s the client who decides what is good or bad.

1 Like
#13

I respectfully disagree that this is “unrelated”. The method employed in C2 to track the records is the LIFO and on that regard the definition of trade that is given on C2 is correct because is what is needed for that specific methodology. Conversely the FiFO method give a different definition of the word trade: Simpler as I can put does not wait that the sequence of trades became flat but It counts each individual trade within that sequence. Hence, the stats can be dramatically different as well. There is not a superior method but It depend on the type of stat that users are interested to check or the type of program analyzed.

An example perhaps would clarify better: Let’s say we have a program that trade a max of Nr. 5 contracts per position and is composed of Nr. 5 independent strategies. One of this strategy is a simple buy and hold. Because the sequence of trades within this specific program will never be flat with the LIFO methodology and hence the TT always being equal to 1, It is quite obvious that under this scenario the LIFO would be quite useless and some of the stats depicted misleading at the best. This is just an extreme example that however offer some insights when FIFO is a preferred method over LIFO.

3 Likes
#14

So Matthew, are you going to count the signals for us?

#15

Techincally when you open a trade thats a signal and when you close a trade thats another signal , and when you place or ammend or cancel an order each one is a signal .

#16

I always appreciate user suggestions, but adding some sort of prominent “# of signals” stat on the main strategy page probably is not something that will be implemented right away.

I do really appreciate it when people take the time to suggest things they want to see. So please keep the suggestions coming.

#17

With all due respect to you I think you could take here a better decision… I understand that this is your business but without happy and good trade leaders C2 will not go anywhere…

I think that currently C2 shows the number of transactions absolutely in wrong way or the least not complete!! This is basic and I wonder how nobody did not think about that in the last 15 years of C2!

I am sure that this could cause subscribers to take wrong decision. Plain and simple.

1 Like
#18

I have an interesting question coming out of all this, how are the commissions shown in the results ? Is it per trade ($14 ) or per signal ? If it is per trade then it’s not a true refection of actual costs at the broker !

#19

Per buy or sell. (Just like a broker charges.)