Where is there a listing of how many paid subscribers there are for each system (not just ‘based on the number of times the system has been examined by people’) ?
Every so often someone asks that question but the information is not available.
Click on the Show AutoTrade Data button next to Recently Closed Trades.
This will show you how many Gen3 AutoTrade shares, contracts, etc. were traded for each trade signal.
Now, this won’t tell you exactly how many subscribers a system has, but if you see 2,000,000 Gen3 AutoTrade units for a 200 unit trade signal, then someone is making some money
Thanks Jack, sorry but I don’t understand. I’m new to C2 (obviously) and wondered if I should bother to register my system and pay the fees.
What does the following mean for your system:
1/7/11 15:30 BUY 580 SPXU 18.87 1/10 9:50 19.00 Low $63
Does this mean 580 people subscribed to your system and bought SPXU on this signal? Or one subscriber bought 580 shares? Or the system recommended buying 580 shares but noone subscribed or followed this system? Why are the number of buys different from the number of sells? Why is there no help? Very confusing to a newbie.
My systems are not very good examples to use, since I don’t have any Gen3 AutoTraders, at the moment.
So, take a look at David Aronow’s flagship system, Futures Trader Daily. (I’m picking on him because I, actually, think he’s got a pretty good thing going.)
Expand the Recently Closed Trades list by clicking on the Show AutoTrade Data button.
On January 11, 2011 at 20:32, he posted a trade to go long 2 BOH1 futures contracts at 57.08, which he closed on January 14 at 7:45 at 57.29
1/11/11 20:32 BUY 2 @BOH1 57.08 1/14 7:45 57.29
For that same pair of trade signals, there were 26 “Real brokerage AutoTrade data” buy confirmations and 24 close confirmations. I would say this suggests he as at least a few subscribers using Gen3 AutoTrading, certainly enough to cover his own carrying costs to post the system on C2.
Now, I’d suggest not expecting C2 subscription fees to ever be a significant source of income, no matter how good your system is. If you have a good enough system to attract a lot of subscribers, you should be making far more money off of it just by trading it yourself.
I charge very modest fees for my own, two, active systems, because the main thing I’m concerned about is that they support themselves at no cost to me. I, certainly, welcome anyone who wants to come along for the ride, and hope that I provide good enough service that they stick around. But, if my trading style is not for them, that’s ok if they move on to something else.
Since I trade my own flagship system, ES Oscillation, at 100% scale, making a lot of money off of subscription fees is not a big deal to me.
Thanks Jack but that does not make any sense to me. As Judge Judy says: “if it does not make sense, it probably isn’t true”.
Looking at it a little closer:
According to David Aronow’s flagship system ‘Futures Trader Daily’ Real brokerage AutoTrade data shows the following:
On 1/11/2011 8:32:00 PM he had 13 people buy @BOH1
On 1/14/2011 7:45:00 AM he had 12 people sell @BOH1
-Why did less people sell?
On 1/5/2011 12:45:00 PM he had 20 people buy QRBG1
- Did Dave loose 67% of his subscribers between 1/5 and 1/11?
The number under ‘Real brokerage AutoTrade data’ seems to come from a random number generator.
We only show executions where the customer follows the signal exactly. There are cases where (for example):
+ The customer sets an automated stop loss that is different than the system’s stop loss.
+ The customer uses C2’s Gen3 AutoTrading control screen to exit the position manually.
+ The customer’s brokerage account required an “AutoSync” transaction to get him back into sync with the system.
In any of these cases, the trade that was made will not be reported as part of the “system’s AutoTrades” - even though the customer may still be following the system and AutoTrading it.
I’m glad they picked on me since I’m the one who originally sent you over to C2
In terms of making money there are a lot of factors that go into it. First of all your track record is probably number one. If you lose money or have enormous drawdowns nobody is going to subscribe. Unfortunately as we saw recently with the enchante system, many people are drawn in by a high winning % and are willing to ignore large risks taken by the system (large risks as shown in the drawdown column with the word “Extreme” shown). There’s also going to be a lag as many people want to see 6 or even 12 months of data before they subscribe.
Here is a list of reasons I would recommend listing on C2:
- exposure: many more people will see your system here than on the WealthLab forums, and they click a button and subscribe. This is much easier than sending you payments and hoping you send them the system (not that I’m implying you would do this – but as an average internet user in say NY how would I sure you won’t take my money and disappear?)
- trust: you seem honest but how can I be sure? if C2 verifies your track record I can be sure your system is as good as you say it is (as can everyone else)
Now I realize you won’t get the immediate payments you probably want, but it’s a case of short term loss and long term gain. You delay the payoff in exchange for a larger payoff down the road as more users subscribe then you’d likely get on the WL forums.
Also a final note which really only applies to your case – if I understand correctly you’re sending a WL 4.0 version of your trading system – this is severely going to limit your ability to find subscribers. WL 4.0 is no longer supported and while I’m sure there are some users still using it there can’t be too many. By using C2 you open yourself up to a much broader audience.
P.S. Note that I don’t get anything either way, C2 does not have a referral fee for vendors
P.P.S. Feel free to send me a private message if I can help answer more specific questions than you want to post on a forum – I can’t promise an answer but I’ll try
A few years ago there was a Forex system vender who said he had over 200 subscribers.
Here is what C2 says:
"Top systems have earned over $20,000 per month in subscription revenue, but almost half of systems that are profitable have earned at least $1,000".
A bit of digging reveals that Babson had about 80 subscribers after a couple of months if the information, supplied by the vendor, is to be believed. From what I have seen at C2 so far I am inclined to believe that. Babson had a terrific track record for the first two to three months accompanied by a deluge of ridiculous hype. The latter is why it still sticks in my memory.
I believe Enchante must have had more subscribers, but that’s just a guess.
These examples, and many others, say to me that if you want a lot of subscribers for a few months then offer a system which does spectacularly well by accident, big it up big time right from the start, and make some serious subscription $$s until it inevitably crashes. However, that is not a successful long-term business model, apart form being deceitful if you do it conciously!
Or just do your best, get a track record, and be happy to cover your costs after a few months. Then, if it turns out you really have something good to offer you will gather more and more followers over time who can fit in with your style. Unlikely you will make a proper living out of it, but you never know…
Thanks for all the replies. It might be fun to give C2 a try.
I would guess that ETF Timer has maintained somewhere between 200-300 subscribers for the last 18 months - that’s not to be sniffed at.