Today I had this autotrade problem:
I want to have a maximal position size of $7K for each position. But when I came home I had a position of $14K which, unfortunately, turned out to be a loser too… it lost 2.5% after I bought it :-(.
My autotrade is set up such that every order is for $7K max. Normally the system (extreme-os) issues only one signal to open an position. The system history shows that this happened: A BTO signal was given at 14:57, this was cancelled, and then a BTO signal with a higher limit was given at 15:07. I was filled at both signals, however.
I think that it is a problem if a vendor can cancel an order that was already filled for some subscribers. Also, I think that there should be a way to let one order replace the other order while preventing that both are executed in the subscribers account. Or does something like that exist already but did the vendor simply not use it?
I know that the autosync feature could have prevented this, but I had it turned off because in that account I also trade a system that is better traded manually. It is my understanding that the autosync feature was meant as a kind of safety net, and that it is still our goal to let the signal based side of autotrading operate as good as possible, so I think my point is still valid.
I have similar situation today. Duplicated order of LCC was filled. Shortly after that price drop down. To avoid margin call I close second order of LCC near market close and lost ~500$.
Tradebullet has reject duplicated orders future. Unfortunately that future doesn’t work with C2 orders.
In my opinion the better way use BTO limit orders ~30 cents above market price. IMHO
I did not have the problem and was only filled on the second signal. I’m not sure if this is a C2 or TradeBullet problem? Does the cancel signal show up in your TradeBullet log file? I’d expect that as soon as a cancel signal is sent out by C2, TradeBullet would check if the order to which the cancel applies was executed or not. If yes, it should close the position. If no, it should cancel the pending limit order.
The log file says that it received the cancellation signal at 15:07:09 and that it notified C2 that it could not cancel it because it was already filled. At 15:07:36 it received a new BTO signal.
I think C2, TB and the vendor all three can take action to prevent this. Since C2 aims to show the best-case fills, it should not allow the cancellation of an order that was already filled 10 minutes earlier in the subscribers account. And it would be convenient to have a “replace order” feature (as I said, I don’t know if it exists). I also agree with your suggestion that TB should interpret a cancellation as a “close” signal if it is already filled. And the vendor should try to avoid these situation untill the problem is resolved.
The common social psychological phenomenon if several people can help a disabled person is that the feelling of responsibility is dilluted and that nobody does anything 
Jules:
Yes, there is a cancel/replace in the order entry system. However:
1) The system vendor may have not used it and did a separate cancel and replace, or;
2) I don’t know how C2 implements the cancel/replace. The vendor may have done it correctly and the goof was elsewhere.
Hans.
I think it was a cancel and replace, as the signal reads "Note this trade was canceled and replaced by signal id 26151366"
But that is in the comment cell, so I think it is written by the vendor. The cell in the fill column contains only the word “Canceled”. The title of the email is “Trade Signal Update” and not “IMPORTANT: Trade signal cancelled!” which is what I have received in some other systems. So I still don’t know which button he used. But regardless of that, I believe it should have been treated differently by the C2 / TB combination.
I think it’s a C2 message, as I have noticed the same phrase for a few other systems as well.
Ah. So he must have pushed the right button. And then it is appropriate to discuss this in the general forum 
Hi guys,
There is a mechanism to handle this situation whereby TB notifies C2 and C2 is probably supposed to do something, but I don’t remember what it is. TB could close the position but first I need to verify with Matthew what C2 does to avoid compounding the problem.
Francis
Thanks. Please let us know the outcome.
What C2 does in cases like this is it sends an email to the trader alerting him of this discrepancy. I will make TB reverse the order–not close the position because it could be made up of several orders–in the next release but this should not happen often: once an order is filled it cannot be canceled. Obviously that didn’t happen today and Matthew is looking into why.
Francis
Francis,
"it sends an email to the trader "
Who do you mean by the trader? The vendor or the subscriber? I didn’t receive an e-mail stating a discrepancy. I would have been too late anyway today, but on other occassions it could be convenient if I (the subscriber) receive an email too.
We meant emails are sent to the subscriber.
Regardless, obviously the best solution is to make sure this doesn’t happen, and in fact we do have software logic in place to prevent all but the rarest of cases (simultaneous fill and cancel attempts), but that logic did not work in this case, and I am investigating why.
Matthew
Thanks. Meanwhile, the damned thing took another hit today 
Meaning what specifically, Jules? A similar problem?
No, I just expressed my frystration that the same position lost $2 / sh overnight and directly after opening, and some other positions lost as well. You can’t help that, I suppose
frystration -> frustration. And I will get a margin call because my account dropped below $25K. Being overseas, with the banks here closed at Monday because of Queensday, I cannot meet it in time, so my account will be reverted to cash, which in turn will limit the possibilities to recover. And my car broke down, and so forth and so on; just a bad day
Pls, forgive my ignorance, but I have two questions:
1. Even doubled 7K position on 25K cash account won’t lead to margin call.
2. On margin account you can handle the drops much easier
If you don’t mind, please clarify where you might have the margin call. Just curious
I don’t consider extreme-os as realistic system. 20% of TC per trade with market exits. Be my guest lol
If it’ll be easier for you I had/have experience of full filling of an order after cancellation the order. And the chain was/is very simplified. Me-Broker-Exchange. You have You-C2-TB-Broker-Exchange.
Eu
Hi Eu,
I should have been more explicit when I used the word “margin call”. It is not the case that I lost all my money, fortunately This was an equity maintenance margin call, created because a pattern daytrading account fell below 25K. I believe that it is a SEC rule that pattern daytrading is not allowed with less than 25K, but different brokers implement it differently. The policy of IB is that they do not allow you to open a trade that could become the fourth daytrade within five business days. This account, however, was at MB Trading. Their policy is that they allow you to make the fourth daytrade, but then they code your account as a pattern daytrading account and require you to maintain 25K. If your account falls below 25K they send you an equity maintenance call and their punishment is that they revert your margin account to a cash account until you deposit enough cash or securities to bring it back above 25K.
So I didn’t loose all my money, and you may say that with using the unspecific word “margin call” here I cried wolf when there was in fact only a mouse. My apologies, also to MK and FG.
It is inconvenient though, because I cannot use margin anymore and the T+3 rule will apply to me, i.e. if I sell a position, it will take 3 days before the money of the sale is credited to my account and available for trading again :-(. More precisely, it is not exactly a cash account either, but what they call a “restricted margin” account, which means that I can use overnight margin and T+1 if I make a telephone call for each trade. But that is useless for autotrading. Time to go to another broker, as ST pointed out.
I had not only this position open. The system also had three other positions open of which some lost considerably. And I also trade another system in this account. I did not mention this because there occured no error with these positions, but they also contributed to the margin call. Even without the double position it would have happened. So my account value was simply already too close to 25K.
You’re right, a margin account is much more convenient. That’s why I hate it that it is reverted to cash.
I disagree with your opinion about extreme-os. This problem had nothing to do with market exits. You might say that it had something to do with having 20% of the trading capital on one position, but I think that is somewhat theoretical because even with a smaller capital per position these positions will often be correlated. I honestly don’t want to offend you, and I didn’t compare your system with extreme-os recently, but from what I remember the historic drawdowns of extreme-os are not much worse than the drawdowns of Tango.
I know that Tango uses many cancellations, so a change of the intepretation of that command may be relevant for you too. The problem here was not only that the order was both filled and cancelled, but that the replacing order was executed too.
