Don’t you think it is time for C2 to put a big warning sign on each system that is welling to let losses run to 10K hoping for the price to come back and win 10$??
Just a brain thought, perhaps it will restore a lot of confidence in C2. And will make C2 very investor friendly.
As long as people think that there is easy riches in trading, I suspect this will be no more effective than putting warning signs on cigarette packages.
But newer trader SHOULD be warned, that you should consider the statistics for systems here, not just the equity curve
Seriously examine things like Profit Factor and Sharpe.
If you see very large max drawdowns in individual trades in the track record , you should probably run away. If you see that most trades are a few lots/contracts, and some are much larger, that is probably a system that will blow up in the futures. The vendor may rely on "averaging down" to make profits and that is a huge problem.
I think it will be a good idea to add a link on C2 home page that says "teach me how to pick a good system".
If C2 gets say 200 investors a year, half those , at least half will leave C2 after losing their money. in three years, C2 will have only 300 investors; on the other hand, if C2 manages to keep them all away from losing, C2 will have more than 600 in three years, maybe 1000 since these 600 will make money and will tell everyone they know about C2.
Just trying to become famous through this Website 
I agree with your sentiment but my experience is if you try to persuade people to buy what they need rather than what they what they won’t like hearing it and will just go somewhere else to find it. It’s human nature. We have discussed this before. If I write a high win % system with an impressive equity curve and sharpe but I know that there’s a good chance it will eventually implode am I being immoral taking their money or am I giving them what they want supplying the market?
The other problem is the subjectivity of what constitutes a bad system. You have highlighted some examples of what you consider to be warning signs that subscribers should heed, but one could also say risking 15% of your equity in a single trade is another huge red flag, something you do on your own system, so should we warn subscribers about that too?
Index is right that no amount of warnings will stop people subscribing to inferior systems and as long as they continue to do it vendors will continue to supply them. Caveat emptor.
I think we should red flag my system and worn subscribers about it, this way I as a vendor will not do the same mistake again.
4 months later if my system have not done the same mistake over again, then remove the flag.
I think if a system’s average win trade is 10$ and it let losses run with no stops, down to 500$ once during 8 months period, then that is fine in book. but keeping on doing it over and over again creating another HawkFX system on C2 is ridicules.
I think there are successfull inferior systems out there on C2 that people should consider instead. So flagging systems won’t push aways people from C2, it will rather make C2 much more professional.
“no amount of warnings will stop people subscribing to inferior systems” How did you know that? Did C2 try it already?
I don’t think so.
Warning signs would have made one subscribe to Defiant Or Timac instead of HawkFX system, wouldn’t it??
The problems with Hawk-FX were one step beyond what you are talking about. He was using C2 to sell managed accounts. Then he wasn’t abiding by his own contractually mandated money management rules. Then he would take off skiing for a week at at time while client’s money was over-leveraged in FOREX, checking the status once in a blue moon.
And in spite of the warnings given by many at C2, people still opened up managed accounts and lost their money.
I see, perhaps that is why Index wasn’t so optimistic about the Idea.
But could you please clear out how did C2 issue these warnings.
Were they easy to notice?
The CFTC/SEC requires a warnings regarding hypothetical track records (not with real money) and past performance not necessarily ensuring future performance.
But it is rather difficult to warn people against the dozens of different problems (careless money management, careless trading, mistakes, pimped equity curves, vendors with multiple failed systems, questionable statistics, wandering from system to system, discipline, getting well educated about trading, not enough trades, not long enough history, etc. etc.).
Many of the vendors here know little more than the customers. Vendors have a good month or two of paper trading and VOILA!!! They mistake luck for skill. Then they set up a C2 system and start advertising 2 weeks later (annualized 3333% profit!!!), expecting to make $5000 a month on a system with 10 trades. And when it blows up, they start another one. And another one.
I see vendors here for 4 weeks with a sideways system, asking questions on behalf of "my subscriberS." (As if they had some…)
Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).
Sooner or later, it falls upon the would-be trader to spend time learning about trading before opening up a $2000 forex account with the plan to retire on their earnings by next year. There is a reason that 95% of day.leveraged traders seem to lose their money.
It takes many years to become a skilled brain surgeon or a dentist. So many people figure it is therefore a lot smarter and easier to make their fortune as a trader.
Hello Index, I still think C2 should Flag systems and prevent investors from falling into Scams.
I typed "Collective2 Scam" on Google, and one of the opinions that popped up was someone who thinks that C2 is the biggest scam on the Net.
Another one said that C2 is one of the best platform to operate a scam.
Accusations are turning against C2, not against scamers.
Or at least add a link on home page that says "Scam warnings"
That proves absolutely nothing. You are simply getting affirmation of your view whatever you type into Google, that doesn’t mean it’s right. Put in ‘OJ is innocent’ and you find evidence supporting it, put in ‘OJ is guilty’ and guess what, you will find evidence supporting it.
The more you believe something to be true the more you will have accumulated evidence to support it. Everything is beliefs not facts.
Re the warnings, I recommend you read “Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds” and you will realise that no amount of warnings will stop people determined to invest in something to good to be true, it’s human nature and precisely because it’s human nature it happens again and again, people never learn, history repeats and that is why we will always have boom and busts, bubbles and crashes.
While I don’t think C2 is a scam, it is surely a good business model for the owner(s) of the service as well as the brokers which make money on transaction cost, and banner ads, no matter if the subscribers make or lose money as a result.
From a subscriber stand point, I personally believe think a good rule of thumb for anyone using C2 to give a system at least 90 days before considering to subscribe. And when / if subscribed to a system, it might be a good idea to use very little leverage on any one system, or if there is a few systems that may be trusted, that trade different instruments, then hedge with several systems which is what C2 is trying to accomplish.
What I find frustrating for the Trending Futures service that I have been managing all of 2008 coming up on the close of a full 12 months is that I think commodities are coming off a bottom from a very bearish run the last 3-6 months of 2008, and while I can’t predict the future by any means, I personally think if the commodity markets do continue turn more bullish as they appear to be, then the Trending Futures service is going to start locking in some terrific gains over the next several months (go back and look at the first 3 months of 2008).
New WHEAT position put on this morning, now
Unfortunately however, and frustrating to me is the service has lost the majority of its subscribers in recent months, so there will be few to take advantage of what I believe is going to be a nice bullish run in the commodity markets to likely follow in the next several months.
Aspire Trader
[LINKSYSTEM_29987971]
Yep, I agree.
Also the Human nature will push these “crowds” to believe that C2 is a scam money sucking threat unless the “crowd” sees scam warning signs everytime it visits C2, then they would realise and know that C2 website it self is not a scam.
I pesonally think that the crowd is emotional and too dumb, and I highly doubt that it would realise the good truth about C2 unless C2 provides good impression by posting these scam warnings links on the website homepage.
I think I would have personally fallin into one of these scam systems easily if I didn’t have my own big trading experience. And that is exactly why I think C2 must do something about it.
Just imagine your self a bigenner, How would it feel to be scamed on C2 ??
sees scam warning signs everytime it visits C2
C2 provides forward based stats. The stats is a core of C2 business, not warning messages.
I think it would be easy to win a process against C2 in court in state of NY if C2 will use word “scam” in any definition of a system.
Personally, in my best knowledge, as I can see by C2 stats. Most of C2 forex system is pure scam. Of course it’s only my opinion and I don’t ask C2 owner to mark any forex system at C2 as “scam”.
Eu
P.S. People deserve their knowledge and the market needs fresh meat anyway 
The problem has little to do with C2. The problem has to do with trading. VERY few systems ANYwhere on the web or in the world work. Whether on C2 or not.
Few really successful traders made it without blowing out an account or two, putting in massive amounts of screentime, etc.
The masses come into trading, because they think they can plunk down a monthly fee and put major profits on autopilot. I have been in trading a long time. The ignorance of traders runs much deeper than the steady supply of Guru Vendor Wannabes.
The main advantage is that on C2, you can rip a vendor’s system apart by the nuts and bolts, not depend on falsified “User Testimonials” or the “Samples of Past Trades” page of someone’s “trust me” glossy website.
About the only difference between “Warnings” and the “Titanic”, is that the Titanic had a band.
This is not about C2’s advantage , or warning signs, Or the fact that 99.9% of systems fail.
This is about “The Band” hehe
Seriously though, its about letting people know.
It doesn’t need to be “Warning signs”, Or "Scam Alerts"
It can be be a simple link on the left C2 home page column that says “C2 Education”… Or something like "Grandpas Way On C2"
It is like working in a Medical experiment, Getting paid to test medicines, but without letting you know what side effects all these pills they make you Pop might have, knowing that some may get you cancer
Every vender can trade anyway they choose, and all subscribers can trade anyway they choose. All the numbers are provided by C2 as well as a Risk Disclosure Statement
for anyone who has the wisdom to use them. There are many without wisdom that may gain a measure of wisdom as they do something foolish. This is life, this is what we have all been doing since being born into this world. C2 provides all the numbers required and subscribers will use them or not, based on where they happen to be in life. This life process can never be changed as it is written in stone.
hmmmm , what are you talking about exactly here?
Universities would give you books without teaching you how and what to study in them?
Have you ever heard about a soldier who has been given a gun without teaching him/her how to use it?
Have you ever bought a Laptop that came without a user manual?
Seatbelts are provided in every car, but “careful” people don’t wear them till they know the safety benefits, Or at least realising that it would make them safer.
I am 100% sure that if HawkFX was still going till now, making profits. Most of you would be subscribed to it.
There are trading rules in which if broken, doesn’t necessarily mean that a system would fall down immediately, it may take time, don’t be surprised if it took three years or so.
C2 does some teaching here. Perhaps it could be expanded but the simple truth is, “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”
"I am 100% sure that if HawkFX was still going till now, making profits. Most of you would be subscribed to it."
If HawkFX was still going we would have all been smart to have been subscribed, but with a tight stop on the equity curve. Wouldn’t do it myself but there are people who can make money in ways others wouldn’t dare. In fact trading in general is one of those ways.
Here is a fact, anyone in a correct state of mind will make money no matter what they do, anyone in an incorrect state of mind will lose money no matter what they do. Most of us here making money fall somewhere in the middle with most leaning towards an incorrect state of mind hence the struggle for most traders.
The answer, find something mind correcting.
