What exchanges/Times are Futures traded?

Matthew:



If my understanding is correct, InvincibleX has indicated that electronic trading of copper futures is not supported. However, electronic trading of other futures are. This inconsistency results in confusion for the system provider and anyone trying to read his English. Copper futures are traded during the following hours:



- Open outcry trading is conducted from 8:10 AM until 1:00 PM.

- Electronic trading is conducted from 6:00 PM until 5:15 PM via the CME Globex® trading platform, Sunday through Friday.



Do these inconsistencies between futures exist and if so where are they documented on C2? System providers cannot guess at what is and isn’t supported.



It’s true for copper that the electronic market is shown in the symbol guide, but orders for it get rejected. Has something to do with C2’s quote feed not supplying quotes for that market, for some reason.

At any time any user can look up the list of the over 100+ contracts that are supported here at C2. The list is viewable at:



http://www.collective2.com/symbology_futures



The list is also available on the order-entry ticket, one click away.



Frankly it’s preposterous that a trading system vendor is blaming C2 for the fact that he allowed his drawdown to balloon to $35,000. He knew what contracts were available before he traded them. He has a responsibility to his subscribers to trade wisely, and to manage his system wisely within the context of what is tradable and what is not. Just because electronic trading of copper was unavailable did not preclude him from simply closing his position and taking a loss like a man, instead of allowing it to grow to $35,000 as he added position on top of position, hoping to finally catch a price correction.



Whether or not electronic copper is available does not cause or prevent that decision.



Finally, I am perplexed why the system developer insists that “my trading system works” and boasts that his own trading results are not nearly so poor as those of his subscribers. That must be a great comfort to them.



Let me end this post by taking a step back and noting something. Perhaps some of the long-time users of C2 will recognize a pattern here. Whenever a trading system blows up, the first target of the vendor’s blame is C2. It’s somehow always C2’s fault. The angry letters start as soon as the system results begin to tank.



I’m so used to the pattern by now that I hardly ever bother to respond. But in this case, as Domenic thrashes about, accusing C2 of all sorts of sins, I feel I cannot remain silent.



At any time any user can look up the list of the over 100+ contracts that are supported here at C2. The list is viewable at:



http://www.collective2.com/symbology_futures



The list is also available on the order-entry ticket, one click away.



Frankly it’s preposterous that a trading system vendor is blaming C2 for the fact that he allowed his drawdown to balloon to $35,000. He knew what contracts were available before he traded them. He has a responsibility to his subscribers to trade wisely, and to manage his system wisely within the context of what is tradable and what is not. Just because electronic trading of copper was unavailable did not preclude him from simply closing his position and taking a loss like a man, instead of allowing it to grow to $35,000 as he added position on top of position, hoping to finally catch a price correction.



Whether or not electronic copper is available does not cause or prevent that decision.



Finally, I am perplexed why the system developer insists that “my trading system works” and boasts that his own trading results are not nearly so poor as those of his subscribers. That must be a great comfort to them.



Let me end this post by taking a step back and noting something. Perhaps some of the long-time users of C2 will recognize a pattern here. Whenever a trading system blows up, the first target of the vendor’s blame is C2. It’s somehow always C2’s fault. The angry letters start as soon as the system results begin to tank.



I’m so used to the pattern by now that I hardly ever bother to respond. But in this case, as Domenic thrashes about, accusing C2 of all sorts of sins, I feel I cannot remain silent.

Matthew -



“It’s true for copper that the electronic market is shown in the symbol guide, but orders for it get rejected. Has something to do with C2’s quote feed not supplying quotes for that market, for some reason.” Hans Hanson.



Given more than one trader makes the same assertion should this not be investigated?



Steve

Agreed. But I have looked at the symbol guide and am unable to find references to electronic copper. I could be wrong, but please have a look to verify:



www.collective2.com/symbology_futures

I hear where you are coming from, MK. C2 is a unique platform, and I think people would have to look long and hard to find similar functionality. And yes, people do hammer C2 for some things. Maybe that is a sign that expectations are higher :slight_smile:



I have one suggestion; the page detailing the traded commodities is a bit hard to follow. I suggest either sorting by symbol or by commodity. It doesn’t really exactly do either…

I agree with the pattern you describe. I suggest to give each vendor of a public system one free test system (i.e. results are only shown to the vendor) and encourage vendors to thoroughly test new strategies first, including the availability of various instruments. Whatever dirt they throw at C2, you can then always say "you should have tested it first". Maybe the current fee associated with a test account prevents vendors from using this feature more often.

I once thought that if test systems were made available for, it would also increase C2 business and exposure.



It doesn’t just have to be for a potential system offered to others. It can also be used for people who want to do real-world “paper trading” before risking real money.



The only ones who offer “test accounts” are brokers, and they tend to be nosy and intrusive when you sign up for them. OpenECry limits it to 2 weeks, for example.



Creating an industrial strength paper-trading (test) account that is hidden from others, might be a nice lure for people to come, and then even subscribe to C2 systems or offer their own. You could offer this paper trading service to brokers, and this might be a lure for them to promote C2 as a whole…

I think test systems bear some cost for C2 and that’s probably why you currently pay a fee for a test system. Especially if the number of signals is large, I can imagine it eats into server resources. So, I don’t suggest handing out test systems for free to everybody but only to vendors who already pay for at least one regular system.

Well… I would agree with definition of C2’s pattern of blaming anybody else except yourself :wink:

However, I’d like to add on top of MK said from my personal experience.

I always treated C2 as small broker. And I hope everybody knows first rule. Broker is always right. Second rule is “Read rule one” lol So I spent first two months after creation of my system for figuring out what I can or cannot do at C2. After that there weren’t a lot of problems. In general C2’s support is great/helpful and majority of mistakes is coming from my side at the moment :frowning: So… I would assume “Stupid is, stupid does” © situation for covering bad trades by blaming C2.



Eu



P.S. I’m not invincible and I don’t think that I’ll have any excuses in C2’s stats. lol

Hi Matthew -



I had a look at http://www.collective2.com/symbology_futures



When was this page last updated?



If I were were a new futures system provider how would I know to navigate to this page before starting up a system? Perhaps I am blind… I don’t see anything jumping out at me.



Also, how did you determine what 24 hour electronic futures contracts you would support?



Hans -



When was the last time you checked the symbols page? Currently, copper is not shown as electronic trading.



Steve

I agree… none of the following are on the symbology guide:



@QC# miNY COPPER APR 2007 COMEX

+HG# COPPER COMPOSITE MAR 2007 COMEX

HG# COPPER MAR 2007 COMEX

QHG# COPPER MAR 2007 COMEX

QLK# LONDON COPPER GRADE A MAR 2007 COMEX

The reason those symbols are not in the symbol guide is because C2 does not currently support their trading.

There is a link on the order-entry ticket that says: "Symbol Help?"



Regardless, my point is simple.The trading system vendor did not lose $35,000 because he was unable to trade the electronic symbol. He lost $35,000 because he refused to close an open, losing position – and, instead, continued to increase his bet as it moved against him.



After the fact, he attributed this loss to C2’s not supporting electronic copper. Enough said.

> The answer is: because it needs works, C2 didn;t see it before and they didn;t had the time to adjust it. that’s it. Gold, silver,etc have electronic trading and Copper don’t.

mmhhhhh



Is the entire $30K loss in copper? What kind of size is the trade?

You’ve had ten days to get out, why is it C2’s fault you are still in?

If you find it unreasonable to trade pit copper only, then why trade copper on C2? Why are you short on a parabolic acceleration, a volume and price breakout, as well as a regression channel breaout? If you please, what is the logic of the trade? Some Elliott Wavers might ask

why you are still fading a third of a third?



Where is your stop loss now?



Thanks, I look forward to better understanding your system so I may

subscribe in the future.

Matthew:



"There is a link on the order-entry ticket that says: "Symbol Help?" "



The symbol is supported so why would he look at "Symbol Help"? It is the exchange that is not supported.



Also, does a system provider need to create a system before finding out what contracts are supported?



"Regardless, my point is simple.The trading system vendor did not lose $35,000 because he was unable to trade the electronic symbol"



Do you have a dispute mechanism clearly layed out in the event the System Provider disagrees with C2?

Steve: It’s been a while since I last looked at the symbols page.



After jogging the memory cells a bit, I now remember where the error/confusion was. When you try and enter a trade using what one would assume is the symbol for e-copper, the entry window does indeed show the following:



QHGN7 is COPPER JUL 2007. C2 price format: 368.35 - Market opens Wed 08:30



So a vendor could easily assume that it is traded. If you continue on with the order, it looks like it “takes”, but is then later rejected. But based upon the message that appears in C2’s order ticket, it seems at first that QHGN7 is a legit symbol. Try it and see.



Hans.

Thanks Hans -



Maybe there is something Matthew can do with the user’s I/F to prevent confusion in the future.



"Do you have a dispute mechanism clearly layed out in the event the System Provider disagrees with C2?"



I think the FIX button by each completed trade IS the dispute method. And I have always considered MK as reasonable towards this. I have also reported a number of problems when I see them in other systems, and he has reasonably acted, I think.



Most problems seem to be data glitches.



I don’t understand how Invincible got into copper. The trade is still hidden, so I do not understand why the unhappiness about not having a copper instrument. If not available, why is there a DD that is C2’s fault. And if Dom got in with some kind, why couldn’t he get out with the same???