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I don’t get it either. Both mediocre strategy, non tos, not good performance, no track record.
I would give it alreast 12 month to 2 yr and see how it the $6k in fees will justify its performance. I have no doubt he will have low drawdown just from he’s short history.
Both systems have now been TOS approved, Backward Induction shows the certificate already and Payoff Matrix has to accumulate some more trades before the certificate will show up on the system page. In order to make the fee more economical simply scale it up and get the necessary capital by ditching some of your mediocre or risky systems as I have done. Besides the signals, the developer often provides some timely and valuable information to his subscribers which helped me already to save some money. What I cannot understand is why people don’t take advantage when the developer offers a free trial subscription, most of them who did, I am pretty sure, are by now subscribers.
That’s a good idea, wait a few month and decide then if it is worthwhile for you.
Yes, low drawdown and capital preservation are very important with this strategy.
Especially after Feb.2018, preservation of capital is high in demand.
Other strategies like Redcrest SP500 & Don’t worry lost many subscribers,
because of bad risk management last month.
The trader is babysitting every trade. And there is always a stop loss…
And once the trade is in profit, a trailing stop secures that profit.
Of course there is never a guarantee of making profits here.
One things for sure, he’s never attended a marketing class on pricing 
It’s difficult enough given the offer available to convince anyone to join a strategy over $150… put it 20% higher at $200 and the gain in individual subs is offset by the lack of volume. Put it at $500 and it’s game over.
Now if you have a real superior product… sure.
So looking at basic marketing. The benchmark here us OPN. 90% perf. Owner very proactive. Always on screen. Excellent results. Costs $88. So our new friend here will have to show a sustained 400% to 500% for a year or 2 to justify his fees. Otherwise… why join !?
Yes many strategies crashes in January. But not all. And there are still a lot to chose from.
Still people are price sensitive and they remember that strategies have their drawdowns and contain inherent risks. They don’t want to dish $6000 per year that may add to a DD or even a crash of the system which so far does only provide one thing : promises
So the strategy owner here will have to perform exceptionally and wait forever to get his numbers up.
Or he could simply perform exceptionally, put it down to $150 and see his numbers grow steadily and one day increase his fees whilst keeping grandfather rights to early joiners.
GuillaumeDebauchez8h, This is really funny. You seem to be concerned that the developer does not get enough subscribers with his present pricing model while your only concern should be that the systems provides a reasonable return after fees with very low risk, which is especially important in today’s volatile market, which his systems do. Today was again a good example how Payoff Matrix performed while most of the other popular day trading systems lost money. Just looking at the subscription fee is short sighted, what counts is return after fees with low risk. If you had taken advantage of his initial free subscription I am sure you would have appreciated his unique approach and skill. By the way, he has already plenty of subscribers and I am sure the list will steadily grow as more people can appreciate his model. Just think of the many low priced volatility and option selling systems which recently blew up or took a big hit and the ones which did not might not be so lucky next time around.
You cant convince people who buys lambo and Bentley that they are not worth the $. to some $6000 is alot of money in fees, but to others $6000 is a drop in the bucket.
KarlA
As I said, do your maketking against a proper benchmark
Rules of pricing :
Intrinsic Cost (production cost)
Value
Competition
Cost is negligible, not a factor here
Value… could be high to the customer if performs as said. Which we have no proof of. Ok so the value could be even more than $500 depending on account size. But for most accounts of smaller size, the system is priced out right there (let’s not forget about risk)
Competition… benchmark for this strategy is OPN at $88 which as far as anyone can see is a system that has proven itself already. There are of course others. And many good systems.
If you price yourself below cost you’re dead
If you price yourself above value you’re dead
If you price yourself above benchmark competition…you better have a unique sales proposal against the benchmark. Which this system doesn’t have. At least clearly not yet.
And btw I’m not only concerning myself with this. It’s not my product. I subscribe to OPN and am very happy with it. I just found it amusing to see the pricing that’s all.
Remember also that many systems have had high prices before and performed in a stellar way for 6 months. They did rake in customers… who didn’t fully understand the level of risk used to achieve such results. And the system crashed because it only works in certain market conditions. But the developer kept the cash
Haha VixTrader. I do agree. Except that… most guys with a Bentley are good negotiators and would hate to pay $6000 something they can get for $2000. Am I right ?
Again then it comes down to explaining the value proposal. At this point this system has none to offer. If it does in the future it will attract a few guys with Bentleys and leave guys with BMWs (lots of them) and guys with fords (loooots of them) off it’s customer list.
Anything above $150 early days is doomed. Again smart thing is to see that one can get huge volumes for a successful strategy here. Hundereds of subscribers for those who really will prove themselves over time. Now if really one doesn’t get enough money from 100 at $150 with an exceptional system, one can gradually increase the price as the value proposal becomes more clear. Whilst keepin grandfather rights to those already in… so that they never leave
What I actually wanted to say is that with his strict risk control and his present track record one does not need 50K to trade his systems in my opinion, so if you scale it at 200% with a 50K account you effectively cut the fee in half.
Karla, you are over trust to the developers. It doesn’t matter how strict his systems, u must not over leverage. None of systems in this world is holly grail. What is your back up plan if it doesn’t work? Remember, market is art. Last year trend is different with this year, you can not expect the same result between past months and future months. If I am subscribering his model on feb, I pay to much fee for subscription n C2. Don’t over leverage Karla, you will be sorry.
sam_w, Thanks for your reply. I trade many of the systems I see in your portfolio, except I stopped Futures WealthBuilder quite a while ago and finally Simplicity, even so I made and still have a big bundle of money from that one since I was an early subscriber and later drastically limited the number of contracts traded. Do you still trade those? I am also wondering why you subscribed to Backward Induction only and not to Payoff Matrix?
I dont use Futures Wealth Builder , Simplicity and Backward Induction, however my YTD is still over 28% ( more than $10K) and I dont pay $500 per month. I drop those systems long time ago before Nov 2017. As you can see, Simplicity always do BTFD and when there is strong up trend, the model miss that opportunity. In 2018 , Feb, BTFD does not work and market change into STFR. Simplicity was famous model, look at now. What I am try to say , do not over confidence in one particular model, especially you mention, you want do 200 Scale for the capital $50K (Payoff Matrix). Did you remember when I asked to developer what is his capital for that model, he said, he has more than what it shows from C2. Dont you think, you are over leverage? The developer has some room if something does not work as a plan.
This is what i call “baller” strategies, they are prob scaling to the max 300%, so $500 fee is nothing to them. you and i are in the same boat, i dont see the “special” ness in it (yet). I went thru my check list.
Track record - nope
performance - nope
risk management - maybe (too early to tell)
unique style - nope
intraday only - checked
lot of pumping in forum - checked
worth $500 a month, as of now not yet.
Where do you see the “specialness” of hamster ES intraday, which you once favorably mentioned on the forum and apparently trade yourself as compared to Payoff Matrix?
hamster ES intraday:
Starting Date: 1/15/18
Cumulative Return: 5.5%
Max DD: 12.5%
TOS: No
Payoff Matrix:
Starting Date: 12/5/17
Cumulative Return: 20.3%
Max DD: 5.0%
TOS: Yes, it is already TOS but in order for the badge to show it has to accumulate more trades.
Hamster ES intraday is definitely NOT special. Never said it was “special” once. all I said it was a decent intraday strategy. But it’s $150. Definitely not worth $151
On Feb 20, in the Thread “Looking for Futures Strategies”, when John Desenberg asked the question “Who has some good recommendations for intraday strategies” you recommended these two strategies:
Day Trader Futures, and
hamster ES intraday
And that’s it. 2 intraday strategy look pretty decent. I never said they are special or awesome. And now after 2 more week. They both are still NOT special, but ok. Time will tell.
I know I definitely didn’t say “ this developer might be one of the best traders who ever came to C2.”
Any more discretionary day trading strategies anyone?
(possibly with stop loss)
OPN W888 lost 50K in the last two month.
I guess it’s wiser to choose a strategy by the risk- & money-management
and not by a cheaper subscription price. 
Well, now since you said it I can only say this is what I told him in my last conversation with him and I don’t have to constrain myself anymore. Up to now I did not want to rub salt into an open wound. I just hope he got out of it a long time ago.
