Hello Vince, KarlA and Others! I would like to say some words about last trading months. Yes, I have som big loss by system, loss was be bigger as I based, for start was based on 30 DD and some hard risk-management with growwing contracts and positions. When I had at system with 140 k… was trading like with 115k and in this based system will taking risks… When was trading in this style I have many letters about how and when and etc. in trading. Because many persons was cannot undestand me and my money system. And I take a decigion (when have on C2 account 125k) that was changing money management and will based trading as for 100k and 50 k deposits. And in this based systems if tradind with 125 k with 100 k positions… was losed at 40 k… that is 40 %… If traded in the top 135 k was losed 50k but and I write this like a 50 % deposit. Yes big lose. Yes something going on not so good as was be. Yes lose money.
And in some losed money I was analysed and take a some points. Had much bigger lossed because this slippage much bigger was be as I based in risks in slippage muck lower as was been. Some instruments was get some many negative static. Some bigger profits contrans had been can not be trading, because had some hard work on main work and some hours can not be trading normal with normal analyse (Yes its my problem, but this work getinng some money to me )…
And About why so chipper price in system was be? I had been asking myself and cannot undertanding why some many people on C2 cannot want to subcribe to system with big price as 500 (I think this is normal price to system that can made about 5000 in month)… When I have a system with 188 can not have a subscribers.... when choosing 88 its was be normal and people Just asking me about system and etc…
Now I working on mystakes and have some analysys… And in this mystakes I was upgrade my system and think that 3 month will be like minimal to 0 DD to max as target will be 15-20 %…
But its just like a target and words… And I stop to writting. I go to sleep. And tomorrow will Be a Good Days and Wish You all the best and Have a Good trading!
Now i’m just working and Trading. I Just need to do it Well. Just Do It.
Best Regards
Just my 2 cents.
You are trading obscure instruments with low liquidity.
Slippage and scalability will take away a lot of profits on instruments like Cotton, Platinum, Feeder Cattle. Or even make them impossible to manage when you have 10 or more followers. One or 2 contracts can be traded with no problem on Cotton, but for more; lot of profit will evaporate due to small volume.
Better to stay with Crude Oil or index futures.
The style and grammar of this explanation sound like the emails I get from African princes.
I believe he is from Ukraine, and is using Google translate.
Thank You MatejGlavas for Your’s 2 cents. ! I analysed and noticed this problem when 10 and more had been in my system. And sorry for English, I’m better speak on German language. But normal understand on English. Have a nice Day.
@aum108, OPN wasn’t chosen on price, but on risk and money management. In those days, his strategy was very controlled, as many acknowledged. It ticked all the boxes. Since then, he has changed. The change of behavior became obvious as the losing streak went quite deep, ie many many losses in a row… normally he’d have 5/6 small ones and a couple big wins… So I stopped and waited. And now it’s, to my despair, game over. I understand now that he all of the sudden “had another job”, and “wasn’t monitoring quite so closely”… well that’s the whole problem at C2, one never knows who one partners with here and it’s becoming quite impossible to trust anyone. I wouldn’t trust Payoff Matrix / Backward induction either, seems not much better than anyone else, just more expensive. Between those who are just lucky in a certain market config, those who “get a job on the side” after saying they were full time, those who lose subs in a DD and then take risks all of the sudden, or will just throw the towel in that DD and leave you in the ditch instead of continuing… those like Roption or VixTrader who are super experienced professionals and get a 50% DD nevertheless, I don’t think I’ll continue with C2. It’s been 2 years now and as of now I have nothing running. I’m doing my own trading like before. It was a nice dream to see trades pop automatically in the account whilst freeing some time, but it doesn’t work. Plus I have doubts whether the platform itself will survive as many of us are thinking the same. I wish they’d find a way to monitor quality somehow as I think technically C2’s done a superb job, they made so much progress, but at the end of the day if we struggle to make money with it, it will be difficult to make it sustainable. I wish you all the best, whether you like an $88 or prefer a $500 strategy.
@GuillaumeDebauchez, I agree on many of your comments. The main one being that a strategy can all of a sudden change behaviour and the subs never are aware of the changes until its too late and the money is lost.
Payoff Matrix having some of the most expensive strategies on C2 ranging from $500 to $1000 is still debatable as to whether its worth the price currently and time will tell.
This is why I would urge C2 to screen/monitor strategy owners a bit more instead of allowing anyone and anybody to add strategies since this may lead to a lot of disgruntled investors (having lost all their money) in the long run and the only ones left in the forum will be developers looking for subs.
There were many strategies on C2 that were profitable due to the bullish climate we had during this last bull market (5 years) and now that the easy money period is over we are seeing many of the same strategies failing. This may also have contributed to the terrible track records of many of the strategies.
GuillaumeDebauchez, great post - you hit many of the same concerns I have.
I’m not sure what the solution is but it seems C2 needs to do a better job of regulating system owners. Its fine to say that if a system owner goes off the rails (or disappears) that the subscribers will figure it out and unsub but how much money is lost in the meantime?
TOS seems like the only sure fire way to make sure that the system owner has skin in the game.
@Pete, unfortunately TOS does not guarantee the system does not lose either and the owner may trade infrequently while charging higher fees.
I use to trade for clients and took a percentage of the profits that were made quarterly intervals. If there were no profits then there would be none paid to the trader either. I think this would provide more incentive for system owners/traders to trade properly. But with regulations and such I doubt that would be allowed in C2.
Just my 2 cents.
How can C2 monitor strategy owners?
There is nothing stopping people from returning under new names.
More important question is this. Is there a really “alpha” in anonymous trade leaders, with no verifiable track record in long run? Yes, bull run made many strategy look great, and all it took was 2 days in February to wreck them. All it took was few days where buy the dip did not work, and adding to losers ended really bad.
C2 is great idea. But what if sad reality is that this losses are just real picture of almost all traders?
I guess they’d have to first of all have a way to rate the strategies according to various parameters and display feedback much more clearly, trace forum posts related to a strategy and display all that on the strategy page, in a place that’s easy to see. Beyond certain deviances, the strategy gets some sort of a warning on it. And that, not just on the screener, but on the strategy page itself. Email people when they see strange activity on strategies, acceleration in losses. Have someone monitor each strategy constantly and liaise with the strategy owner to explain divergences, etc… Basically, force a certain level of compliance, and ask the owners to prove what they are stating. If they say we use this parameter to do this or that, and then place stops this or that way, well, C2 could talk to the guy, do a screenshare, and ask to explain… Basically, they should be an account manager for each strategy owner, and also to be honest one for subscribers, to help them chose and scale… If they want, I’m sure they can, it’s a matter of being smart about it. And they are smart. I’m sure they are losing a lot of income just now and must be looking at what they can do. Maybe they will manage.
@MatejGlavas, C2 can monitor based on a business model which they will have to revise of course. There are ways to identify an individual like facebook does so that people will NOT return under new names.
The reality is that daytraders will eventually have losing periods and that long term investing is probably the most profitable. Daytraders will not make money all the time and the stretch can go on for a yrs if the system is not robust.
C2 also has limitations on the products traded such as futures options which are great for hedging against futures positions. This is another area which should be corrected.
AlgoSystems, I like the pay for performance idea but it also has downsides - it could cause a system owner who is down to swing for the fences in hopes of turning a profit for the quarter, at least TOS means that the system owner is taking the same loses as the subscribers. The problem with C2 is there is no downside for someone to trash a system (averaging down) - they can always come back and leave their past behind them.
GuillaumeDebauchez, another great post. I hope C2/Matthew is watching this thread.
I’ve seen strategies where the description is completely blank, hard to force any accountability when the system owner won’t even bother to describe the system.
C2 needs to do more than provide a platform and let everyone roam free.
I am all for changes, and more regulation.
But, that is up to C2 folks to change.
There are many sites, that have added some features, that can be of use here.
EG; depending on how old strategy is; % of payout to trade leader is greater.
If certain DD is breached, % to trade leader is going down to minimal.
Main problem is overleverage. Hard to expect anything, when you have folks using 5 K, trading 1 ES or NQ; and only looking for %. Because it looks better when you are 100 % gain, and ignoring huge leverage and risk used when comparing that would be 10 % gain of 50 K account. Maybe, also those leader know that their strategy will not survive in long term, but they gamble and hope for some $ from subs.
OK; there are also subs who do not care and just gamble.
You guys want regulations!? If you want regulations why not go to the one thousand and one other options you already have. Get a financial adviser, go to Vanguard, Fidelity, or Schwab. Go to trading platforms that require licensed strategy leaders. In my opinion C2 is unique because it has no regulations! That is why I like it so much. You can find a talent from a different pool. Yet that is also why I tell my friends who aren’t into investing as much to go invest with Vanguard or Schwab. I worry that they may not be aware of the risks when they see a strategy that earned +15% annually. They may not be able to interpret and understand how much leverage was actually used.
In my opinion the only thing that needs to change in regards to regulations is increasing the awareness of how much leverage is used in in a given system. If they do that then maybe I wouldn’t be so afraid to tell friends about it. The problem is that many subs are gamblers and think that C2 puts less responsibility on them when it is actually more. I am fine with that because C2 is one of the few places that does that.
I don’t promote any regulation to C2 just more clear warnings, not legalese warning. Warnings like, “this developer has had this account leveraged at 20 times before. A 5% drop in the market which happens X number of times a year on average could make you lose all your money.” Warnings about money management would be good to. For example, “Warning you have 50% of your account tied to one strategy that holds just two stocks. You should try and have no more than 10% of your account devoted to any one stock.” Another could be, “This developer has sold naked calls before. If the stock he did this on had gone 10% in the wrong direction he would have lost X dollars. If the stock had gone up X% the account would have been wiped out.” These are obviously examples and could come in the form of graphs or warnings etc. Many traders don’t need them, but to expand the user base more warnings would be good for the ones that don’t know how much leverage a leader is using when they buy futures, sell naked options, or concentrate their holdings too much. Has any strategy that has not had any one position equal more than 10% of the portfolio, has not used margin, and has not sold naked ever “blown up” on here. I highly doubt it. Gambling trade leaders only exist because their are gambling subscribers - all of which want regulation when they go bust. Give warnings ahead of time and if people still want to gamble here rather than at the Casino that is that, but don’t eliminate the talent pool of unlicensed yet good traders from C2.
He is right, if you want regulations. There are plenty of CTA, Financial advisers you can work with. There are thousands of them, if not hundreds of thousands. C2 is just a signal provider, not trading or financial advisory service you guys are trying to make it out to be. 99% of the subs that lose money, it’s there own fault. They do not use common sense.
All the funds that I have ever worked for and the industry as in general, if money manager can return 25% a year, with 1/4th drawdown, he is a superstar. Yet, the subs keep on seeking out 100% return systems. Systems cannot perform 100% a year without taking enormous risk.
Renaissance Technologies fund has a return of about 30% year. (using this fund as just an example) If the best of the best can only do that, why would you think some random guy on the web can beat 25% safely? Now if you are a gambler, by all means, roll the dice.
Simple idea - the main graph on each system page:
For times when the system is not trading with real money, make it one color. For all other times, make it another color.
Should be a pretty simple fix and it would highlight BS systems that can’t make money trading with real capital, not just “fill when touch”, but “fill when trade through”.
I like that idea. I would also add another curve to the graph with a secondary vertical axis on the left that shows margin used as a % if the net liquidation value. Then when you see items returning 100% a year you can see they are using 1,000% to 2,000% of the net liquidation value. Just like it is now I would keep it where you can turn the different curves on and off as a viewer likes, but by default have it show margin use as percent of net liquidation.
Gambling strategy exist because they look the best. I doubt many strategy with 40-70% draw down has many subscribers.
The most dangerous strategy actually are the strategy with huge gains with very little draw down. That’s where subscriber loses most money. Because they don’t do the research or realize it’s not possible to make 100% gain with 10% drawdown. All they see is omg it’s up 90% in 3 months and only at 5% drawdown. I’m gonna put all or 50% of my account into it!
You rarely see many subscriber post everything with strategy already with high draw down. Because that’s the warning sign. They only allocate 10% of their acct and they watch it more often.
Just my 2 cents. I believe if c2 can prevent some bad leader keep coming back with different user name would help out the community a lot. It’s will prevent them to gamble too much or it will end their career on c2.
