Message for Bob Svan


I did reply to your earlier message on the PERSISTENT forum but the vendor seems to have deleted my post, I’m not sure why as I thought it added to the conversation and in any case it was replying to a point you specifically addressed to me. Anyway, I didn’t want you or others to think I hadn’t responded so I have reproduced it here where it is free from censorship.

“To Jon:

”“as I already said C2 doesn’t work out commission per share, it is fixed amount per trade, so your 10 shares will cost the same as their 10,000 shares.”"

I think you are wrong. Collective2’s commissions is $0.01/share"

Bob, you may well be right, I could easily be mistaken. The larger point though was that regardless of what it is he is averaging 1,000 trades a year at $17 per trade, so he would need to make nearly 10% a year just to break even, that is quite a handicap to overcome and is why a lot of scalping or ‘short trade duration’ systems look good on the surface but have poor cumu $ after commission figures or keep after slippage percentages.

Regardless, it may be irrelevant soon as I believe MK mentioned a few months back that he plans to introduce a feature where you can select whatever commission rate that you want to suit your own circumstances so scalping systems may then start to look more attractive statistically.

I deleted the post because your post adds no value on my forum. It is filled with assumptions and errors which show that you don’t know anything about day trading. Where do you get that $17 per trade figure? Where in the world are you in? Who is paying $17 per stock trade nowadays in the u.s.? You just won’t quit. Seems like you have some kind of personal agenda here. I’ll tell you what. You have created 6 systems of which 2 you have abandoned…You have 4 left out of which 2 are headed south. Stop wasting time attacking me and try to save them from destruction.

Ah, a personal attack, it’s come to this has it. OK, allow me to retort.

The post was actually replying to a comment that Bob made specifically to me. To delete it would be a bit like us having a conversation in which I contradict something you say and then a third party doesn’t allow you to respond. How would you react? A forum is designed to allow discussion on issues so that others might learn or benefit, I’m sorry you wish to deny this.

I would be happy to reveal the math behind the $17 per trade figure:-

Cumu $10,499, Cumu $ after commission $9,876

Therefore 10,499 - 9,876 / 38 trades = $16.40

Let me know if you need me to walk you through that again, forgive me for rounding 60c as I calculated it in my head at the time, I didn’t think for a minute I would subsequently need to reveal my secret formula.

It really doesn’t matter that no-one is paying $17 per trade, you’re still not getting it, I am not endorsing the $17 figure, again I am trying to highlight to you that all people see with ‘high trade frequency’ or ‘short trade duration’ systems is that the ‘cumu $ after comm’ figure is a lot less than the ‘cumu $’ figure, they see profits get killed by costs, they don’t sit there and calculate the avg comm per trade and then say oh well no-one pays that anyway so then it must still be ok, they don’t give you the benefit of the doubt, you are making the assumption here. Perception is reality, I’m sorry you don’t see that. Any trader that’s lasted 20 years will tell you that losses are not the enemy, costs like commission and slippage are, and if a system doesn’t have enough of an edge or high enough profit factor it will eventually succumb to costs, and the number one casualty rate to comm and slippage is day-trading systems, especially those with either high-frequency trades or short trade durations.

On the contrary I have no personal agenda, I made that clear to you from the start and I believe I’ve been reasonably civil and orderly throughout. Allow me to recap what happened here, let’s just rewind the tape a little shall we?

You invited comment on your system.

I passed reasonable comment.

You took it personally.

We discussed it further and came to no agreement.

A third party joined the discussion and made a point directed at me.

I responded to the third party.

You deleted my post to the third party.

I re-posted my reponse to the third party publicly.

You personally attacked me.

I think you need to examine your own actions before you hurl accusations at me. As for your summary of my systems on C2 I will quote you “it is filled with assumptions and errors”, thank you for your concern but all my current systems are performing well within their expected parameters, I suggest you watch and learn.

Lol, this guy censored my posting too. He’s moonlighting from the Chinese Communist Party.

I pointed out that his system has so many trading commissions and fees that it is impossible for anybody to make a buck unless he accomplishes excessively outrageous returns.

Well, good luck to him. Let’s see if he’s back in a year to discuss real performance.

It is rather obvious that Dean has many problems.

He posted, seeking discussion

I responded with many years boiled down into what I see as critical, and he called me emotional.

You responded that he was scalping, which anyone holding for 19 minute averages is he was, and he denied it and became angered (note, his "had to get up from the computer several times before responding)

I defended your post, as I know you are well informed. And you also responded

At this point, he basically said many vendors were attacking him (2 is many?)

I also said what he is doing was scalping, giving the investopedia definition (which was wrong according to him), which said scalping is ten to hundreds of trades daily. Of course he picked off the high end of this number "hundreds" and said he did not do this, so it was not scalping.

You were quite reasonable in your attempts to follow up, but mainly he deleted your post and went stomping off like a child

He is an angry person, with a holier than thou attitude. He only wants people posting, who agree with him. He wants to be in control of the discussion and cannot take criticism.

Anyone depending on him as a vendor may not like what they find.

We all made good points and nobody was attacking him. It makes him look even more incredulous. And before this, I didn’t know vendors could screen the forum posts regarding their system. It makes me not believe anything I read on the forums.

I was under the impression that deleting other’s posts was not possible


Admins can delete posts on their own forums (i.e. the forums they start and run).

I am surprised to see you kids still trying to defame my system for absolutely no reason. In any case, you’ve already wasted a good portion of your weekend trying to put down my system while almost all your systems are zig zagging south. Keep it up. The more you keep it up the more views for my system. It has already doubled over the weekend. Thank you very much kids. Aren’t you boys trading?

Unlike you guys I have members to my system and my system speaks for my credibility.

We are surprised how clueless you are acting. And now that your intent seems to hope for some publicity good or bad, well so much for credibility.

You may have been the fastest to 8% ignored in ET history…

In ET history? lol. Again, this proves how nervous and confused you are in trying to defame me. Oh so you are one of those ET junkies who are always arguing all over the place. I see where you got your attitude now. You’re talking about 8% ignoring me and you’re being ignored by almost 70%. You are too funny and so are your posts. Instead of trying to make money for your members, you’re here wasting your time further. Oh I am sorry, you don’t have any members. I am done arguing with you babies. Back to trading…

Ah Svan, relax man, nobody is deflaming anyone. What do these ignore ratings mean anyway? I saw that someone is ignoring me and wonder who it is, lol. How interesting…



Defame you? You are doing quite well without any help.

As to making $$$, I make plenty from trading. Apparently you need the subscription money…