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First I would like to compliment the site creator. I enjoy this site and think it has great potential, I am hoping for its continued success.
I recently was privileged enough to obtain my very first subscriber last month in December and was actually somewhat surprised as my system is very realistic and I hadn’t built up even a year of results yet, so I quickly reached out to the individual and welcomed and thanked them for subscribing. After the first week though I realized that my subscribers timing was such that they began right AFTER a nice upswing in our equity and right into a draw-down. Of course as seasoned traders and investors everyone here realizes that draw-downs are part of the game but I try my best to keep them within reason. Knowing this I made sure to keep communication with my subscriber letting them know that unfortunately the time they subscribed was at a point in the equity curve that was down-trending but that I was confident in my system and we would work our way through it. I sent about 3 or 4 communications to them but never got a response back. Then yesterday I received an email from Collective2 informing me that less than a month since starting my subscriber had cancelled their membership. I was a bit disappointed because I was reaching out to them but they never replied back and less than a month into it decided to withdraw. With my system there are times when things can get quite boring for an entire week but as traders we all know that good trading is boring trading but perhaps the subscribers here may not understand that? So I just wanted some thoughts of some of the trade leaders here.
Are the subscribers here a bit fickle and not understanding of the commitment and perseverance real trading entails? or are most just out for excitement and get rich quick opportunities?
Most are here for get rich quick.
That is why day trading futures systems are more popular here (you can trade those with small account). Systems that show very high win rate are more popular. People are just looking for ATM basically.
Hmm ok well perhaps I should also tweak my description and make it painfully clear that my strategy is more akin to swing trading where positions are held between 24 - 48 hours and on average only 3 to 4 trades per week are taken but that there can also be times where there are zero for an entire week if no opportunities present themselves. Hopefully, collective2 can also attract more sophisticated clientele that understands that real trading takes time and patience.
The one you are talking about looks fine at the moment, with a 16% cum return and a 4.6% drawdown: normal expectations. The problem comes when a potential subscriber looks at your entire history and sees you opened five (5) previous versions of this same system, all of which failed and sometimes miserably. The only thing that distinguishes the strategies is that you moved a hyphen around into different places in the title. Then you have another strategy FX Hi Prob Growth, which you discontinued after 4 months with a -24% return. Finally, you have a ETF-only strategy which you started in August 2015 and also discontinued after only 4 months with a negative 10% return. You’ve been on C2 for 2-1/2 years, so you’re hardly a newbie. It should be evident to you by now that any new subscriber is going to be very wary of how things will go with the latest strategy, and once the drawdown occurs he/she will think there’s likely a chance the same thing is going to happen again that happened 7 times before. I for one wouldn’t even take a chance at being your subscriber until I saw you actually succeed at something for at least 2 years. Am I missing something?
Appreciate your effort and no offense - which one of your 8 systems (out of which 6 are in red) do you recommend to subscribers? Why would I as a subscriber feel confidant in you? what differentiate you from others that is visible to all of us?
Well that is all part of the issue I suppose. This goes back to the possible get rich quick mentality. You seem to be more of the subscriber that I would actually desire well informed and doing your homework. My question really is what type of subscribers does this site attract? Yes it did take me a while to get my system on track, I am sure you know that trading as an activity is extremely difficult and not something that comes easily. So several failures is not something I am ashamed of. I have learned more and more from everyone. But as you stated you would not have subscribed and honestly nor would I. So why did this individual feel that they were comfortable in risking their hard earned money on such a young system?
My question is are the clientele here sophisticated enough to hold on through a draw-down when after 2 years of proving my strategy they bail after one month of flat performance. I perceive that from your response you are seasoned enough not to. So you do give me hope that my HARD EARNED experience will not be wasted here after I have invested a good amount of time building a reputable track record.
No offense taken. But I think you are misunderstanding my question. I actually did not want or expect anyone to subscribe to my system. But someone did. Then after reaching out to them 3 or 4 times during a minor drawdown they never responded and cancelled. So I was just curious as to what type of clientele I would be dealing with if I decided to stay on here. Non responsive clients that DO jump on before I have proven myself and jump off without a word are not too appealing.
oh ok, sorry! I for one understand drawdown are part of the game - if you show me your performance after 2 years that is worth investing, I surely will
as a subscriber on c2 i can tell you that its difficult for an avg strategy to catch our eyes. I dont mean in anyway to knock on your strategy. just because there is so so so many mediocre strategy on c2, unless you are willing to pay $250 a month to be on the front page or out perform all other buy-da-dip or vix strategies out there, its almost impossible to get popular.
I divided my account here is 3 parts, conservative, intermediate risk, and aggressive risk. and i pick 1 or 2 strategy for each of the bucket. I got Dont Worry for conservative, VixTrader and Simplicity Trading for intermediate portion, and VolatilityTrader for aggressive. I tend to review and rotate in new strategy each month or each quarter. Like i use to have Vixtrader as part of conservative but now is in the middle bucket, and dropped Simplicity Trading this month. As new strategy comes on board i will add and subscribe to other strategies.
but in the end lets not kid our selves. If your strategy doesn’t have an edge or beat your peers in “Performance”, “TOS”, or “Track Record” is extreme difficult to get subscribers. And also you will see subscriber will only subscribe for 1 month or even 5 days so they can see what you are trading and see your current positions. Once they get a feel like they can copy what your doing or you dont have any special edge to your strategy they will un-subscribe.
Thank you for your candid response Osutai it was the best thus far in revealing the mindset of the potential clients here. The behavior you described is interesting. I am not quite sure (if it does turn out to be the approach used by most on here) whether that would work for me, the long term edge of a system in my opinion doesn’t seem like it could be determined in as little as 5 days or a month. I hope that there are potential subscribers here that take a more long term approach, as investing two years of effort for not much reward may not be worth it. Thanks very much again!
When the current bull market dies, there will be many chances to pick up subscribers hurting from fair-weather systems failing them, for strategies that continue to function.
David, I also think some sideway or bear market will show which systems are still working in other than bull market conditions.
BlueCollarHedgeFund, I’m also a strategy developer and have a different experience. I’m running my strategy Regular Income (https://collective2.com/details/107003652) for more than a year now. I got my first paying subscriber after 4 month only in April 2017 and I was very happy. This subscriber is still subscribing. Meanwhile the number of paying subscribers increased and I saw a drop in subscribers in June and July 2017 when my strategy was in a sideway range. That made me sad a little bit. Anyway there are still subscribers to my strategy.
I also welcomed every subscriber with a personal message to let me know if they got questions. I’d say 50% reacted on that message and we shared information.
I’m wondering that I’m getting less new subscribers since C2 changed it’s website to the new layout. Now there is the leader board in main focus of potential investors. Back in the old layout you saw also the strategies making new xxx day highs on the dashboard. In my opinion that was better for newer strategies to attract new subscribers.
So in the end I think you got both parts of clients on C2, the ones that want to get rich quickly but also the ones that know how trading works and that look for longterm solid systems.
So I guess if you got 100+ trades an still that good track record you’ll earn more confidence by potential subscribers.
Around the time of the new layout was a fundamental pricing increase that included higher fees for subscribers as they used more systems. Previously one autotrade fee and you could subscribe to as many systems as you wanted–but no more. I lost several subscribers around that change, I presume because people cut down the number of systems they subscribed to to save on fees. I know I reduced how many systems I subscribed to myself. The recent pricing changes have been quite negative for trade leaders, at least in the short term.
Great question on subs. I am a fresh newbie to C2 (2 months) who heard about the company on an investment forum. I joined out of curiosity. Having traded algorithms for years both in an individual and institutional setting, I thought “why not?”.
I did not expect to have any subs for at least a year and that was OK. I liked the idea of interfacing with investment professionals who understand investment lingo and love trading as much as I do. I have “met” many great folks and learned new things, and for that I’m grateful. Here’s my take with subs:
As I’m sure you do, treat them with the utmost respect and professionalism. The ones I have talked to are actually very astute in trading and also have successful businesses/careers. They are looking for “business partners” for their investments. I suppose the “sub spectrum” is pretty wide in terms of overall goals, but at least I like the ones I have.
Don’t let the pursuit for subs overtake your pursuit for superior performance. Yes, subs are a mouse click away from leaving but, if you let that drive your investment behavior, it will affect your results. Remember they are also a mouse click away from joining as well. I have subs that I never hear from and some that chat everyday. That’s OK because I take seriously the fact that I am affecting their personal money.
Recognize that, if you let it, Collective2 can turn into an investment version of a video game. You don’t want that. I truly believe that some developers live and die based on the number of subs they have. That is bad and will definitely deter from your results. Sadly, I think C2 can be a place where some folks come to feed their egos and validate their ideas. Their investment results are residual to this very basic human need. Just have fun with what you’re doing while adhering to solid investment principles.
I think the best advice that I can give is what I tell myself everyday. Be VERY DISCIPLINED in managing your subs and don’t let your subs manage you. By that I mean, if you have a good strategy that you believe in, trade it to the letter and let the chips fall. That’s the best way to set up expectations for the subs (because that is what you hopefully communicated to them) and the best way to deliver good results. Don’t manhandle your strategy. I can’t say that enough because when I debrief at the end of day, that’s how I leave the most money on the table for myself and for my subs.
as to David’s point, there is a lot of good strategy and good managers here on c2. But in the end, the reality is these managers are here to make money off subs. If you are a great trader why would you care much about how many subs you have, because you make way more money trading for your self than sharing your idea with everyone else in the world and risk someone copying it.
any trader with 100k+ capital and can make 3-5% on their money each month, why would they even bother or waste time finding subs? also having your real strategy on c2 plus having a huge sub count can actually hurt you in the long run. I remember a year ago, VIX DayTrader 1 and VolatilityTrader was un-tradable due to slippage and hundreds of subs all bid at once. 2 yrs ago XIV was not as popular & liquid as now, when i get an alert from VIX DayTrader 1, by the time i look at the price, the c2 autotrades already bid up the price by 0.5% in less than 2 seconds. same goes with VolatilityTrader with their option trades, massive slippage due to c2 autotrade bidding 200-300 contracts all at once at market price.
this is the reason i never try to be a leader on c2, i can make more $ just picking the right strategies to follow than waste my time trying to launch a strategy. But not everyone has the capital to invest vs starting a strategy. my advise is be patience, as long as you can show a 6 month track record as an aggressive strategy w/ reasonable DD, or 1 yr track records as a medium risk strategy or 2 yr track records as a conservative low DD strategy you will gain subs over time.
I have often wondered the same thing. Why would someone publish if they have a good strategy and don’t need the money. I think some people who don’t need it for the money may also just enjoy the competition and bragging rights. I mean that isn’t the reason for me. I want the money.
I am often torn over the decision to earn subscribers, while paying more in fees than I receive , versus just saving the money I pay to publish and having more to invest. As of right now I am way farther in the hole to C2 than the subscriptions I have received from subs. Another factor though is that this gives me a platform to help friends and family that want to follow me. Therefore, I will probably always stay on C2 to help the family members that are subscribed, but I could see myself just going private and only keeping current subs in the future if I didn’t need the subscription fees. Regardless, for someone like me who trades stocks, is located in the USA, isn’t licensed, doesn’t want to get licensed, but has a good strategy he wants to share and make extra money from or just help friends and family, C2 is the only option I know of. I was very happy when I first found C2. Also, I don’t think I will worry about someone copying my strategy until I have more subscribers
