'SP 500 Futures Scalper' and 'SP500/NASDAQ Scalper' 50% off

Hello Chris,

I have watched your system for a while. One thing I’m quite curious about is that, based on your comments over the past period, you seemed to have a rather pessimistic outlook for September, especially around the time of the Fed’s announcements (if I were to subjectively assign a number, it feels like your pessimism level reached 80+). Given this, why did you choose not to step back from the market for a while? Especially since you previously mentioned contemplating manually liquidating positions. Or did your system provide a very strong signal in the recent days to remain in the market?

Thank you.

Hi @QiQiao, that is a GREAT question, and frankly, one we have been agonizing a bit over in my related non-C2 job.

We’ve had two significant debates in the last month or two. The first was whether or not to scale back our trade quantity and/or target take profit prices for September, knowing that a) September is an historically bad month for the market, and b) our strategies are inherently long-biased (because of the general market direction of the majority of data our models are trained/tuned on).

The second point of discussion is what to do around Fed announcements. As I’ve mentioned above, the vast majority of the time, at least in the last two years, the market reaction to just about ANY Fed meeting/statement is the same: jump off a cliff, and then recover over the following week. That is obviously not guaranteed, but is VERY probable given past performance.

So, knowing both pieces of data above, what (if anything) did we do differently for September? With great hindsight regret, the answer is nothing. Yet.

We decided not to scale back our trading for September simply because our strategies, while long-biased, have navigated red market months quite well since going live (non-C2) in May of 2022. Including last September, which was a BLOODY month for the S&P, yet we returned positive ROI.

This month obviously could not have been more different. We were held hostage by a long position we entered on 9/5 and basically held (as the market went sideways in a relatively tight range peaking just below our take profit target) until it stopped out post-Fed meeting on 9/21, hitting our fail safe “everything has gone wrong” catastrophic MaxDD stop loss, which we’ve only hit I think twice before in the last year.

Regarding the Fed meeting market behavior, we actually do already have logic in place that does not allow our system to open a new position within X hours of either the Fed minutes release or the Fed meeting/rate announcement. However, what we do not have logic for (yet) is what to do if we’re already holding an open position going into one of those events. Looking at our 15-16 month history of running these strategies, the majority of the time during these Fed events either a) our strategies are already in cash, so it’s a non-issue, b) the initial market knee-jerk is in the direction of our open position, closing it in profit, or c) given the volatility leading up to these Fed events, our dynamic stop loss is adjusted wide enough to allow for the initial knee-jerk market move without stopping out.

This month, however, was obviously none of those outcomes. We were already so close to our static “catastrophic” stop loss value for our 2+ week open long that the post-Fed market movement subsequently triggered it, stopping out for a huge loss. Our dynamic stop loss might have been able to ride out the post-Fed drawdown if we hadn’t already been so close to stopping out with our static “worst case scenario” stop loss, but that’s a moot point.

So, what are our lessons learned going forward? First, we have decided that specifically for September (and possibly for August and October), we are going to reduce our trade quantity (not really applicable here on C2) and tighten our take profit targets for long positions. While we’ve faired well in previous red months, we got our butt kicked for this one. And we know September historically is a tough market month.

For the Fed events, we’re testing ideas now on what to do when we have a position open going into it. Do we just dump any open positions X hours before the event? Do we only dump longs? Do we dump 50% of an open long pre-Fed, and then buy it back if the market drops X points? And 20 other possibilities we are brainstorming and will be testing.

All that to say, hindsight is 20/20, but knowing what we know about the probable outcomes of both a) September market performance, and b) market behavior around Fed events, we are VERY aware that we need to make some adjustments, and that us doing well overall over the last 16 months or so around these events may have been more about good luck and timing than it was specific processes around these events.

We certainly don’t want to overreact (or over tune) for this horrible month, but this month has shown us we do need more logic/processes in place around these events.

Hi @ChrisPage,

I’ve been following and looking back at your strategy stats and I think you will have to agree it does not look great especially for a fee that is relatively high for a 20-30% yearly return.

This last month has shown that you need to implement either a hedge or stop in case of a black swan event which could happen in this climate. The FOMC event gave you a sample of the dangers that may happen without hard stops or hedges.

Hope you consider this in your current or next iteration of the strategy.

Nice going there for a few months there.

Just my 2 cents.

This pretty well sums up this last week:

As we have long positions opened on Thursday, here’s hoping that we see a recovery next week. That’s norm for the week following Fed meeting/statements, but of course anything but guaranteed… we also saw the same thing last month, a monster pullback through the first three weeks, and then a nice recovery in the last week:

What a month.

I couldn’t agree more, which was pretty much my entire post preceding your post.

As much as this drawdown is painful to go through, and could not be worse timing for me promoting a strategy here on C2 for the first time ever, and as much as I wish I could do September differently (as I’m sure most would agree), we are still within the historical boundaries of drawdowns for these strats:

From the C2 Description for “SP 500 Futures Scalper” (MES/ES strat):

  • Max Portfolio Drawdown since May 2022: 26%
  • Max Portfolio Close To Close Drawdown since May 2022: 21.2%

From the C2 Description for “SP500/NASDAQ Futures Scalper” (MES/ES/NQ strat):

…regular drawdowns of 5%-10%, six drawdowns touching 15%, and one drawdown touching 30% in early November. YOU NEED TO BE OK RIDING OUT DOUBLE DIGIT DRAWDOWNS, OR THIS STRATEGY IS NOT FOR YOU. I know that’s easy to say but a lot harder to do when you’re in it. I’m right there with you, as I’m trading this with my own funds as well, so your drawdowns are my drawdowns.

That being said, we will certainly be taking what we have observed and experienced so far this month and see what we can learn from and apply to our strategies going forward to mitigate these black swan events.

Can hardly wait for Thursday’s gif !

Well, it had been a difficult last couple of months, both here for my two C2 strats, as well as in my non-C2 job, where we have been running variations of these same strats since May 2022 trading a LOT more than is reflected here.

We posted our first red month (in my non-C2 life) for September, and it was bad one, and as of writing this, October was just set backwards after the whipsaw we saw in the market today: a straight drop down when the hotter-than-expected jobs report came out, causing our strategies to go short, only for the market to rally the rest of the day primarily on news of averting an expanding auto workers strike, stopping out our short position:

Our strategies have fared well in previous red market months, including every month in a difficult 2022. But the market is different now, and by virtue of being tuned every weekend, our strategies are different now than they were in 2022. Going live in May 2022, the most recent 6-9 months of market activity at that time already had plenty of downturns that were a heavily weighted part of their tuning. Going into August and September of 2023 however, the most recent six months of market activity (and therefore most heavily weighted in our tuning) was mostly all “up and to the right”.

Because the first six months of 2022 looked very different than the first six months of 2023, we believe that is why our strategies fared much better in previous red months (especially the second half of 2022) than they have fared over the last couple of months. They are more long-biased now that they were during the red months of 2022.

We are going to evaluate several options, including more heavily weighting 2022 market data in our tuning (as 2022 saw a lot of up AND down swings), and seeing if we can tighten our dynamic stop loss calculations without sacrificing our ROI/MaxDD ratio.

What these last couple of months, and especially September, have shown us is that our strategies are vulnerable to sharp reversals in the market after a prolonged and sustained run in the opposite direction. While we expect that to be the case, these last few weeks have demonstrated that we need figure out a better way to minimize our losses during those transitions so that we are not seeing drawdowns this large when they occur.

It is not a surprise. Your strategy has 80+% winning trades and ratio of the avg winner to loser is 1 to 3 approx. Long periods of steady income and then sudden deep drops are typical for such strategies. If you will be over-leveraged at these moments, your equity curve will go to zero.

This is typical for martingale strategies, but seems you don’t do it. Looks like your stops are much wider compared to your takes. So 3-4 stops in a row and you are at 50% drawdown.

2 Likes

What a ridiculous environment we’re living in when any shred of GOOD news about the economy tanks the market…

Sometimes it seems like our models actually predict and position for good news, but it has not made the upside down correlation that most good news about the economy now equals the market going down instead of up. We’re working on that.

Federal Reserve Powell GIF by GIPHY News

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Sigh… let the daily Fed market manipulation continue… with 19 Fed governors and presidents, all one of them has to do is sneeze in a hawkish or dovish tone within microphone range and off we go…

When the market moves up and down over one percent multiple times within an hour, it is a pretty safe bet why…

We really do need to name these events… the Powell Panic? The Powell Punch? The Fed Fallout? The Fed F%&*?

Back to our trading… one of our epiphanies after the September carnage of being stuck in a single losing open long position a good bit of the month (before it ultimately getting decimated during the Fed press conference fallout in late September) is the idea of breaking up our strategies into separate “long only” and “short only” instances.

Up until now, a single instance of a strategy could go either long or short, but once in a position, it could not open the opposite position until the currently open position closes (taking profit or stopping out). Until either the take profit target or stop loss is hit, that strategy instance is basically on the sidelines with its open position.

Running separate “long only” and “short only” instances of the same strategy allows a strategy the possibility to continue trading in the opposite direction if the market goes against the original open position.

In the image below, screenshots from our current live internal testing, you can see one “legacy” strategy (the S&P 500 Futures Scalper actually) that we’ve broken up into “long only” and “short only” instances. If this strategy were still running as just one instance, it would be sitting at a -$4300 (now -$4500) open ROI, as it is currently on C2:

However, with separate instances that allow the same strategy to go short while holding that open long position, you can see the “short only” instance has been actively trading as the market has moved against our long position. Trading both instances, this strategy is actually at a -$2950 open ROI.

The open long is still of course in a very losing trade at the moment, but the net loss of that strategy instance is reduced by allowing it to continue to trade in the opposite direction.

1 Like

Don’t know what the hell just happened in the news, but catastrophic stop loss hit for the second time in a less than a month, taking out our 4400 long. Stopping all trading until we restart with new portfolio config we’ve been testing.

Good that you stopped the bleeding @ChrisPage, Its obvious your model or rules need some adjustments in a volatile market. I do believe the overall market is not in good shape in the near term as stock prices are still overpriced relative to interest rates and corporate earnings projections etc. (Which doesn’t necessarily mean we only go down but could swing down and up).

Have you considered hedging a position with futures options or correlating futures products? ie. Hedging MES with MNQ or MYM etc?

Managing a portfolio without being able to hedge in my opinion is gambling.

Just trying to add my 2 cents again.

1 Like

Isn’t the stop (per trade and at the portfolio level) already a risk control measure?

See the basic premise of trading is to guess the direction of the trade. Who can guess the direction 100% of the times? If its not 100% then its considered gambling. Stops won’t necessarily increase the odds to a 100% winning percentage. ie. a x pt stop doesn’t mean that the trade will work 100% of the time.

However, in saying trading is similar to gambling the odds can be made to be increased in the traders favor by using different techniques such as technical analysis etc.

If a portfolio is managed using hedging methods which will enable the trade to profit more likely even though the position is not initially profitable such as using covered calls or using other methods.

Hedging can be highly complex.

To answer your question: stops will change the risk parameters for sure and increase or decrease the odds of success.

Hope this answers your question.

1 Like

All tradings are gambling, just the probability of winning is higher if the trading “system” is better.

Stops and hedging are two ways of managing risks. Hedging portfolio using options are much more complex.

1 Like

Tempting to turn everything off and take the 16% for November…

We made up all of September’s losses in less than a week, albeit the best week for the S&P 500 in 2023 with an almost 5.9% gain.

We’ll see if we can hold on to our upside and start chipping away at October’s losses as well…

1 Like

Not quite true. You would need about a 19% gain to offset the loss in September and about a 30% gain to offset both down months.

3 Likes