I’m beginning to doubt the size of available subs here at C2. Or atleast, sub participation.
I had a friend on here who had over 50 subs (63 at its peak, I believe) at one time (on a system charging $200 per month).
Just curious, what happened to the system?
He started not doing as well as he had started after he had so many subs and he basically gave up and the system’s performance went south and the subscribers went along with it. After he “closed down” the system I think he still had about 10-15 active subs.
@PortiaRae, it is just an educated guess based on Auto Subs (some of whom uses multiple accounts or trade entries to trade on a system) alone, but I believe both CKNN Algo - https://collective2.com/system100166454 and VIX DayTrader1 - https://collective2.com/system98408819 easily had over 100 subs each during Summer and Fall of last year (2016).
Unfortunately I think C2 is mostly a site for traders/developers/wannabes who showcase their systems to other traders/developers/waanabes. I think the total number of subs willing to stick with a system is quite low. The only developers who get a large number of subs are those with unrealistic returns and expectations and that cost next to nothing (like ConservProfit). Unless you are making around 100% cumulative return with little or no drawdown, I think the number of subs you can expect is quite low, but I do hope I’m wrong!
I think there are a herd of free only subs that jump around and a few pros …like KarlA that searches to find the talented developers to run a portion of their portfolio.
There are systems that I call sucker systems…that keep adding on when the market goes against them …keep popping up under different names.
They have been around for years.
It appears that the only one making money on a regular basis is C2 and the Broker.
They were all ran by the same guy called Martin Gale…
I am curious about how many actual paying subscribers are out there. My guess is that there are more strategies than there are subscribers, but that’s just a guess.
My own experience with C2 has been great. I was trading my own model in my own account, and was very happy with the results. I had a number of friends who wanted to follow my model, but I didn’t know of a good way to actually do that until I found C2. I put my strategies on C2 so that my friends could follow them. As those strategies had success, I’ve had a number of others who have become subscribers as well. I’ve definitely had many more “free trial” subscribers than paying subscribers, but have had about 40 paying subscribers combined between my two strategies – and about 90% of them are still with me. My fist paying subscriber has earned 128% since he started about 11 months ago, and my most recent paying subscriber has earned about 7% since he started about a month ago. So they’re all making money, and I’m making money both in my strategy returns and in my subscriber fees – and of course C2 is making money as well.
I think this platform is a great idea, and I think there are plenty of people who can make a lot of money by using it. A lot of people focus on the martingale strategies, but I think another concern is the number of strategies that make a few very high risk high leverage trades early on to either get huge returns in their first couple of months or go bust; if they go bust, then they just start over with a new strategy; or some may have multiple hidden highly leveraged strategies making opposite bets, and then whichever pays off they go public with and rake in the subscribers who are fooled by the enormous early month returns. I’m not sure how to prevent that, but I’m concerned that it will give subscribers a bad experience.
Anyways, overall I think C2 is a very good product, and I think I’ve got some great subscribers who ask me very intelligent and informed questions.
I agree. Sounds like you have a great strategy, yet only 40 or so subscribers. With your results you should have thousands, I would think. C2 needs to try to attract more potential subs it seems. They’ve already got a ton of systems developers and don’t need more of those.
My strategies https://www.collective2.com/details/106901765 (high performance-very low DD) and https://www.collective2.com/details/106600099 (very high performance - low DD) are running on real money for more than a year by private investors, hedge fund and also few days ago a public company send me a contract for connecting my algo strategies to a big money…
I mention all this because I was expecting that good strategies like mine will have 100+ subscribers and I am far away from this number…My subscribers are making money and enjoy low DD but the efforts to do this are huge…
I realize that many subscribers get fooled by “developers” who does not have any real desire to build real and good strategy so it looks that after all the real money done by C2 and the broker only…
I decide to cancel the trial period to eliminate the noise around the strategies and concentrate only on the real investors and bring them the best I can…
LOL. You should look at Zip4x now. I can’t believe two subs actually just paid $300/month (down from the previous $600) recently to follow that system, which is nothing more than “throwing darts” and “throwing more darts” and hoping that something eventually sticks. It really just baffles me the type of systems that some C2 subs are willing throw their money towards following.
David, you should spend a little money and advertise your system on twitter, google or fb. I’m sure you can double the number of subs.
At the top of a trading system managed b I
I can say that for a time I had a strategy that looked on the surface like it had 30-50 subscribers. But they were all “free trial”. I never had more than 5.
Furthermore, most of the “free trial” users had what looked to me to be made up names/emails from overseas. That was a major red flag for me and started me thinking about leaving. After numerous trade errors I felt it wasn’t worth it and left. I still come back just to watch systems blow up. It’s entertaining.
So if you really want to see how many subscribers someone has - check out the AutoTrade Data - and see how many actual accounts are trading it. Assume it is less than that because some are free trial users.
The fundamental problem is the monthly investor fee is way too high. It turns off potential subscribers, caps developer revenue and worse, encourages those desperate free trial tire kickers and forces developers and subscribers to gravitate towards high leverage, low quality systems. So until the pricing changes to be more in line with present day Internet subscription model reality, this site will remain an incestuous ecosystem that only the Top 10% can participate in. Klein is apparently fine with that.
The sub fees are not too high, but too low.
If you join hedge funds, they charge you 20% on your profit plus 1%-3% annual management fee.
If you check out C2’s competition sites, their fees are much higher than C2.
Your problem is that you think investing is like a free lunch, that you think you should be guaranteed to make money without any risk.Anything less than that would be considered " price too high".
No, investing is a risky thing. If you can’t choose good strategies, you will lose money.
A lot of subscribers are spoiled. They only want free money, and don’t want to pay anything, and only try free trial strategies.
This happened because recently there are too many “good strategies”, because there are “good strategies” everywhere, so developers have to lower subscription fees and offer longer time free trials to compete for subscribers.
C2 subscribers now love to enjoy free trials and not like to pay sub fees, because there are just too many strategies offering like 30 days free trials.
Thing like this is not normal and I guess it will soon be over.
Because there will be no longer many good strategies here.
There have been too many good strategies, not because there are too many good developers, but because market has been extremely low volatility and high growth during the recent one and half year.
This kind of market is not normal and will not last forever.
A normal market has ups and downs. Once the normal market returns, those “good strategies” will go bust and there won’t be too many good strategies left.
Those “good strategies” will become bad ones and no subscribers will dare to subscribe even they offer free trials.
Spoiled subscribers will find hunting for free trials will cause them to lose money and only paying for real good strategies can make them money.
Real good strategies will become scarce and they will enjoy higher sub fees and a lot of more subscribers than now.
Disagree with statement above regarding subscription fee. Real good strategies don’t care about subscription fee because owner makes enough money to run them. Why they are good.
Everything about subscription fee has very short legs and time to live.
That would be a nice fantasy if hedge funds actually outperformed with
their scam fees. 99% do not and those that do long-term are simply not
available to the general public as C2 is.
To MAXIMIZE developer subscription revenues, C2 needs to attact as many
subscribers as widely as possible, not focus only the Top 10% of society
that already has the capital and the income to easily pay the monthly
gateway fee. And that is just the first barrier to surpass because
there’s also the monthly strategy fees which can also be ridiculous in
many cases. The gateway fee is stupid, needless and expensive that
kills everyone’s potential revenues. The way to keep low quality
developers out of C2 is to keep the developer fees relatively high which
it already is now at 250% higher than it used to be.
With a $99 monthly gateway fee that contributes NOTHING to developer
revenues, there is simply not going to be any demand for non-leveraged,
high quality systems because it will be extremely unlikely for a
subscriber to get to the break-even point within a year’s time at the
$10K in account size that C2 claims attracts the most attention. Hence
why nearly every system on here is leveraged to the max using futures,
forex and options. A developer is currently forced to go where the
demand is, not what is risk-reward prudent. I’m not willing to do
that. I know better.
The $99 fee probably increases the average number of systems per subscriber, since it looks smaller when divided over many systems. This is accountants’ style of thinking and not necessarily very smart for investors, however it may contribute to developers, as more systems, that otherwise perhaps won’t be considered, are followed.