The opinions expressed in these forums do not represent those of C2, and any discussion of profit/loss is not indicative of future performance or success. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading. You should therefore carefully consider whether such trading is suitable for you in light of your financial condition. You should read, understand, and consider the Risk Disclosure Statement that is provided by your broker before you consider trading. Most people who trade lose money.

TOS System vs. Other Systems


With a plethora of systems on Collective2, the first filtering criteria for me is whether the trader is trading the system with his own capital. Having skin in the game is a key factor to any major investment. Why would I invest in a strategy that the owner has no stake in whether I win or lose?

Given that the vast majority (99%) of these systems turn over on Collective2 (blow up). Is there any reason to invest in a system that is not TOS? It seems the most efficient way of ensuring the trader will not want to blow the account. There are plenty of systems to create a 4-6 system portfolio that are TOS Certified.

Am I wrong?


Yes. When developer works in industry and cannot do TOS. In other cases, I do not trade non-TOS system. There is the reason for it:

  1. developer never made any money in trading and cannot do TOS
  2. developer knows the system risk and doesn’t want to do TOS
  3. because of 1) or 2) developer business plan is subscription


Exactly. And unfortunately given the anonymity Collective2 offers, it is way too difficult to verify whether the developer works in the industry or is just covering up for reason 1 or reason 2. Rather than risk, I will just avoid.


Well, you can ask for real name, google it and verify. Also style of strategy trading tells a lot. If they email you backtesting results, what tools they use to produce it? You can do your due intelligence. No need to put everyone in the same basket.


I’m not sure it’s always as straightforward as you are suggesting. I have a system on Collective2 that performs well but it’s not flagged as TOS because I live in the U.K. and for good reasons use spread betting as my vehicle rather than CFDs. Collective2 doesn’t allow me to copy those signals so I have to enter them manually. So in other words I do TOS but it’s not apparent to potential subscribers. Little I can do about it though.


Just to clarify.

I am not saying that there are not situations in which a great system developer is not able to trade TOS. Of course this is the case, but why take the risk when you can risk capital with people that are trading their own capital?

For every excellent trader that is not able to trade TOS, there are five others peddling a system with no record and claiming they are not able to trade TOS because of XYZ. It’s just the reality of the world we live in.

Unfortunately, I have seen too many backtests producing 100% annualized over 20 years that start trading live and fail.

I don’t believe words or backtests, only performance of actual live results.

This may make me cynical, but it comes from many years of tracking traders and performance.

The most important factor of investing alongside a manager is 1). Actual live performance history and 2). Investment of personal capital alongside the investors.

You will greatly lower your risk of losing funds by following these rules.


If I understand TOS correctly, then trader can blow out TOS C2 account (and subs accounts) having his real account in good conditions. TOS means that trader open same size trades, but account size on C2 is not connected to the real account size. But I can be wrong.


It displays the % of account size vs. real account within the statistics page. It will tell you if they are trading 100% of the account size.


C2 TOS requirement:

You agree to allow Collective2 to publish the scaling percentage at which you trade your own system.

No words about size of the real account.


Then trade the minimum capital requirement for the system until you have a deeper understanding of the system.

If the trader is not trading the minimum, he will most likely not be able to replicate 90% of the trades and meet TOS requirements.

Regardless, its better than no skin in the game.


Braden: I agree with you generally, but I trade at TradeStation so I can’t be TOS Certified. Trying to get C2 to fix this, since their new API to TS is working well.

I just started on C2 and was a CTA and been trading for over 40 years. I have actual trades on much larger accounts (in the millions) but that is not applicable to a $10K account. With account sizes of $7M + I can do many things that minimize risk. I have traded 400 EMini contracts and reversed positions in the past (800 contract order) and that has no relationship to a 1 contract strategy that I’m posting for fun as a retired guy. I view this as a challenge for me to bring 40 years of experience to this endeavor and maybe I can add some real world observations.


As Developer of TOS system
and one of the leaders by gains over the last year
I must say that i trust TOS’s only system.

In options on stocks and Vix you can take risky moves on no TOS systems
that can give you -70% return or +1300% on 1 move. most of the no-TOS rely on 1-2-3 good trades over the year. then they trade less and risk less and have less gains too.

when we follow for long term we should not by blind for 1 past months only.
I trade my acoount and the revenues from C2 are far less small then the money that i know to take from the market.

i compere my results to TOS systems only and i would never build again system that will rely on trades on c2 site only. when you trust you system you sould take even loans to trade as much as you can. when you not TOS trader you can ignore risk and long term relationship with your subscribers and you MUST make all time risky trade to stay om top and sometimes you can Blow your account too.

1000% plus return is not valid for long term.
100% return can be valid for long term and i hope you can find it on TOS top systems.



I agree with your comments. I just wanted to highlight how sometimes not being a TOS developer is not to avoid any scrutiny or being evasive. It may mean that I can’t do this in my case right now since the C2 does not support my brokerage. I can assure you I am trading along side my clients but I’m just not able to provide the data in real time.

Since I started June 5 on C2, I will be providing my customers a PDF of the monthly results for the system each and every month and they can compare it with their own results. This way, fully transparent.


What about moving 10k to IB account and stop making excuses? It is amazing how for past successful traders/developers/managers 10k can be a big deal…


US residents need to have at least 10 MILLION dollars in assets to open a leveraged Forex account with Interactive Brokers (IB).


Sure, as always your comment is right on the target.

ESSwingM060 and T2ESSwingM1060 are trading ES.


I know, this was just something to keep in mind, as this IB requirement is deeply buried on their website.


The crackdown on forex trading might be why cryptocurrency trading started taking off. It happened around the same time.


This Forex crackdown is only limited to the US, at least for now.
But yes, a lot of FX traders switched to digital currency trading due to these measures.


Key word :wink: